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Dr. Ahmed Osman: The Martyrdom, Funeral, and Burial of Malcolm X | Yaqeen Presents
Dr. Ahmed S. Osman was one of the most influential people in Malcolm X’s life - yet it's likely you have never heard of him. He was Malcolm's spiritual guide, organizing his hajj to Mecca and even speaking at his funeral.
On the anniversary of Malcolm X’s assassination, Dr. Omar Suleiman joins Dr. Osman to discuss his martyrdom, funeral, and burial.
For more on Dr. Ahmed Osman:
Malcolm X and the Sudanese
“He Was My Brother”
Interview: Malcolm X and the Sudanese
Transcript
This transcript was auto-generated using AI and may contain misspellings. First, Mr. Ahmed Osman, Islamic Center in Geneva, Switzerland and the United States. Indeed we have known our brother Malcolm as a beloved brother, especially after his last pilgrimage to Mecca last April, in which he has come to know that all races, despite their color, despite their originality, despite their nationality, they can live in peace and harmony with each other. And since that day, he spent about three months in the Middle East, studying the true Islam. And after he came back, he never preached any racism, he never preached any segregation, he never preached any separation. But he stood for full equality for his brothers and sisters. The highest thing that a Muslim can aspire to is to die on the battlefield and not to die on his bedside. Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh Waalaikumussalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh Waalaikumussalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuh May Allah bless you. How's everything, Dr. I really have been looking forward to this occasion because I was very sorry to have missed the opportunity of seeing you in person because I was overseas.
But Alhamdulillah we are reconnected again. May Allah always allow us to be connected and InshaAllah I hope that we can meet in person soon. So I'll give just some background actually to the audience. I think it's very interesting how this interview came to be. I was teaching a course on Brother Malcolm Al-Hajj Malik Al-Shabazz in Maryland and your daughter was there. And while I was talking about all of his interactions with very important people, I put your picture up on the screen and I was talking about your interactions with him. And of course up until I had met her and I didn't know she was in the audience at the time, your legacy is not documented enough but it's very prominent clearly in Malcolm's own words and his exposure to Islam. And I actually, the first time I saw you was in the Make It Plain documentary which was a long time ago. I mean that's prior to Spike Lee's Denzel film I think was Make It Plain. And that's the first time I'd actually seen your video. And as I put your picture on there and I was talking about you, at the first break your daughter came to me and said that's my father. And I said SubhanAllah and then we tried to connect to have an in-person and you're still involved MashaAllah. Till now you were in Sudan and you were involved with some of the developments that were over there. So Alhamdulillah I'm grateful that we were able to still come together and to have this opportunity. And you know that's the way that Allah works with us obviously is to bring these things together sometimes through these very improbable circumstances Alhamdulillah. So Dr. Ahmed I'll start with just a question. How did you first and foremost, you know, just tell us about how you came to the United States in the first place.
How you ended up at Dartmouth and sort of the makings of that interaction between you and Brother Malcolm that would lead to the history that it led to. Well I first came to the United States when I was a high school student in Sudan. I was in my junior year. And then at that time the New York Herald Tribune paper which was a second ranking paper after the New York Times. They used to hold every year since the Second World War what was called International Student Forum. And they would bring students from about 40 countries overseas to come and live in the United States with American families for three months. And then among themselves they would deliberate all kinds of questions concerning the economies of their countries, politics, social dimensions. And I was selected to represent Sudan in 1960. And in fact the selection was done by asking all high school students in Sudan to write an essay. And in that year the essay was titled The Atomic Scientist, Destroyer or Savior of Mankind. So I argued that he is a savior of mankind. So from all the students who participated, six students were selected. Then they screened us through interviews. And maybe mistakenly I was selected to represent Sudan.
So that is how I came to the United States. So I stayed with families in Long Island, in New Jersey, in Washington, Maryland. And then at the end of the three months, President Nkrumah of Ghana invited us to visit Ghana. So all of us went to Ghana and we attended the first conference of independent African foreign ministers. So after going back to my university, I was admitted to the University of Khartoum. Then in my second year I applied for a scholarship and I was given a scholarship by the class of 1956 at Dartmouth College. And it was really quite an interesting scholarship because part of the scholarship was that I spent all my vacations with the families of the class members. So in the summer of 1963, members of the class of 56 who worked in Wall Street, they made for me an arrangement to work with one of the banks in the Wall Street area in the summer of 1963. So I was in New York in that summer. So it happened that a Sudanese who finished his studies in Illinois was on his way back to Sudan through New York. So his flight was delayed for one day. So just like any Sudanese, I asked him, OK, come and stay with me. I'll take you to the airport. So he became a bit more demanding and he said, look here, I haven't visited New York before. So could you show me around New York?
So I told him, OK, you have half a day. Where should I take you? So I said, I better take you to Harlem. Because if you go to Sudan and you tell your friends that you visited New York, the first question they will ask you, have you been to Harlem? So we went to Harlem and we were strolling. It was a Sunday afternoon. So we came on Lenox Avenue and 125th Street, Mohammed's Temple number seven. So at that time I knew about Malcolm, but I never met him. So I told my friend, how about going in? He said, OK, let us go in. So we went to the temple. At that time, of course, they used to call them temple. So at the door, they were the fruit of Islam. Because, of course, at that time they wouldn't allow any non-Black person to enter their temples. So I introduced myself and my friend that we are your brothers from Sudan and Africa. So they searched us thoroughly and they very warmly, they welcomed us to enter. So we entered and at that time, Malcolm was already speaking to the congregation. There were about 500 people there. So this was my first encounter with him. And what do you recall from that encounter between you and him? Well, of course, I was really quite impressed with him, with his charisma, with his eloquence. And when he speaks, he was like a magnet pulling all the speakers to him.
And coming from an academic background, I couldn't even remember of any one of the people I knew back in my college or anywhere else who had that kind of charisma. So after he finished, I introduced myself and my friend and I told them that we are your Muslim brothers. And as our prophet said, we are like one building, each part is strengthening the other part. And so we come to you as brothers. And then I told brother Malcolm that I hear you, that you are being a Muslim. I see you condemning the whites as being non-Muslims, as being devils. And this is contrary to the teaching of Islam. Because in Islam, there is no distinction between any individuals on the basis of color or nationhood. It is just all human beings are equal. And all of us are descendants of Adam and Eve. So I see that is contrary to the teaching of Islam. Of course, the people there were quite astounded with my statement. And I started hissing of the crowd, showing their uneasiness of my intrusion.
They are coming, a foreigner coming inside their temple and challenging their leader. But brother Malcolm, he addressed them, he said, leave him, let him speak up his mind. He told them that I have been to Sudan. And up to that time, I didn't know that he went to Sudan. He said, I have been to Sudan. I visited Khartoum, especially Umm Drabban. And I met the most beautiful brothers and sisters in Umm Drabban. But when brother, he said, brother, when I went to Khartoum, I found a white devil there. I told brother Malcolm, that is contrary to Islam. And he told me, brother, the Quran condemns a white man. I told him, brother Malcolm, I challenge you. Show me any verse in the Quran that will support your argument. So he opened the Mashaf, the Quran, and he read to me, if I recall it, Ayat 102, Surah number 20. In Arabic it says, There is a word that when, on the Day of Judgment, when people are resurrected and they come, okay, they come, and then there is the word, Zuroqa.
So he translated this word, Zuroqa, these are the blue-eyed devils. And I told him, brother Malcolm, that is an erroneous interpretation of the verse. It doesn't mean the white people. It means unbelievers of whatever color they are. So we disagreed on this, and then he invited us for dinner at a slam restaurant next door. But I had to apologize because I had to take my friend to the airport. So we exchanged addresses, and I told him that we'd be in touch. So that was our first meeting. Afterwards, I think that you have these letters where he's actually writing back and forth with you, and he's sort of maintaining that courtesy, and at some point within the letter exchanging, he starts to see you as not just an authority on those verses and being able to explain them, but also as a friend, your friendship grows through those letters. Can you tell us a little bit about the letters between you, and then when's the next time you all were able to get together? Well, after I went back, I decided to send him some booklets about Islam. So at that time, the Islamic Center in Geneva, Switzerland, they used to bring small publications about Islam in four languages, Arabic, English, French, and German. And they used to send it to us in the United States. So I sent him some of these booklets. One of them was written by the late Dr. Mohamed Hamidullah,
another one by Mohamed Asad, who interestingly is a white Jewish convert to Islam. And he's also very famous for having translated the Quran from Arabic into English, as well as the Sunnah of Bukhari. So I sent him these booklets. So he sent me a letter. First of all, starting it, giving, at the start of the letter, salutation to Elijah Mohammed, the messenger of Allah to the lost nation of Islam in the wilderness of North America. And then he asked me how I was doing. And then he asked me, would you please in your next letter, give me an interpretation of the verse on which we differ and on another verse. And then he told me that I have two translations of the Quran. I have two translations of the Quran, one by Yusuf Ali and one by Mohammed Ali. But he said I prefer Mohammed Ali's interpretation. And amazingly enough, when I started consulting different translations about that verse on which we differ, I found Mohammed Ali's translation was very close
to the translation that he took. Where he translates blue as white. So that was the second letter I received from him. And then I wrote to him another letter after Mohammed Ali won the championship in Florida. So I asked him to congratulate Mohammed Ali on my behalf. And then I sent him also some booklets so that he can give them to Mohammed Ali. So that was my second letter. And after that, of course, you know, things were going very fast. And he went for Hajj. Yes, when I was in New York, after he was suspended, at that time the only mosque that was in Manhattan was the one on Riverside Drive, 72nd Street. At that time, the director of the mosque was Professor Dr. Muhammad Al-Shawarbi. He was on leave from the University of Cairo for one year. So Brother Malcolm started coming and praying with us on Jummah in that mosque. So after the Jummah prayer, we would sit together and chat. So that was his beginning. And then we started impressing on him to go and make the pilgrimage to Mecca.
So when he decided to go, by that time, we had the book of the late Abdul Rahman Azzam, the first Secretary General of the Arab League. He had a book in Arabic called Risalah Al Khalidah, the Eternal Message of Mohammed. So it was translated into English. So I sent him a copy of it. And then on the 13th of April, of course, he went to the Hajj. And did he correspond with you at all when he went to Hajj and made the rest of the trip? Well, he did try to be with us. While he was in Hajj. But after he came back, we got together. And then at that time, Malcolm was the most wanted speaker on the white college campuses, amazingly. And at Dartmouth College, we had a program called Great Issues, whereby the college used to bring outstanding speakers. In 1962, they brought the late Martin Luther King to the college. So in 1964, the student body wanted to invite Malcolm. So they approached the college to invite him among the speaker roster. So the college declined. So when the college declined, then the Graduate Student Council, they came to me. Because I used to tell them about my encounter with Malcolm. So they knew that I knew him.
So they told me that look here, the student body would like to invite him. And unfortunately, our budget is limited. And so we would like you to intercede and if you can persuade him. So I told them, OK, I'll try. So I called him on the phone and I told him, Brother Malcolm would like to ask you for a favor. The student body would like to invite you as a speaker to the college. But as you know, I mean, the budget is limited. I said, Brother, don't speak about money. Anything you ask me, I'll do it for you. So he decided to come. So he flew to the airport at White River Junction in Vermont on the 26th of January. It was Ramadan. So the student and the Graduate Student Council, they went and they met him. They brought him and he was hosted at the guest house in my dormitory. My dormitory at that time used to be called Qatar Hall. And the guests to the college, they used to host them there. So that on the following day from their lectures, the students will prepare for the guest breakfast and have an informal meeting with him. So we hosted Malcolm there. In the afternoon, the registration of the college made an interview with him. Then the student body and the Graduate Student Council had dinner with him. After the dinner, we took him to the spalling auditorium for the lecture.
And the lecture hall was closed three hours because there were not enough seats. You know, I mean, for the students who wanted to attend. I really regretted for asking that his lecture not to be tape recorded. Because I wanted the student to have full freedom to ask him any questions. But the interview was recorded and it is available. So he gave the lecture there. And after that, he was a student. There was questions and answers. And then he stayed overnight. The following day, we had breakfast with him. And amazingly, except myself and another student from Nigeria, who was in the same dormitory, all the students were white. At that time, I don't recall any black student, except we five students from Africa, in the campus. And the students really gave him a standing ovation for his lecture. So really, Malcolm, really, his real audience was white students at the colleges, especially in the Northeast. He has spoken at Yale University, he spoke at Harvard more than once, at Harvard Law School, at Brown University. And this is what, you know, I mean, was ignored at that time. As if he was only, you know, I mean, addressing black people.
But his real audience was the student body, the young people. And his faith for the change of America was in the young people, white and black. That's amazing, you know, that you say that he was, you know, I think that going around these college campuses and speaking to student bodies across the country at the time, I know that Angela Davis mentions that her inspiration being one of a handful of black students at Brandeis at the time, a lot of these connections start to come about that young people were more receptive to the message of Malcolm than some of the others. Do you have any insight into the way that he was self-educating? I mean, it's really extraordinary when you look at his life and you see a man that was, you know, able with, you know, very little formal education, self-taught in prison, learning so much, able to be the most eloquent speaker in America on demand or in demand at college campuses, Ivy League campuses around the country, the Oxford Union. Do you have any insight into his reading habits or what you found from him in terms of his sharpness and the way that he was so intelligent and motivated to constantly learn? You see, the kind of knowledge he had, I haven't seen it even in any college professors because his knowledge was so rounded in history, in psychology, you see, in political science, in the etymology of the words, you know, every word he knows the origin of it.
Even when he used to mention the word Negro, he said the word Negro is not originally an English name. It is taken from the Spanish where Negro means black, you see, and as he mentioned, he said, my university was a prison. This is where he educated himself. And then I remember even in the autobiography he mentions that he was invited to debate Harvard Law School professors. And he said before the debate started, he looked out of the window and he saw the houses that he used to rob in his teenage. And he said, my whole life cycle came in front of me like a vision. There I was robbing these people, then I was in prison. And here I am debating Harvard Law School professors. He said, all of this is the blessing of Islam on me. Had it not been for Islam, I would have ended either in prison for life or I would have been killed. Yes. Amazing. And when he went to Oxford University, he was debating this elderly parliamentarian lord. And in the middle of his speech, he caused my breath to be or not to be, just out of his blue mind, you see.
And he had this kind of instant recollection of things as the most critical moment in his speech. And I think a lot of people have seen his debates on the radio stations. No one could really overtake him in any kind of debate or argument. And in spite of this, all these slogans that they used to stick to him, that he's a guy, a person who calls for violence. This was one of the biggest things he was trying to fight against, image making by the media. And I think now, what, how many years since he passed away? 60 or 70 years? Yeah. Now, everything we have been talking in America about the last four years, about image making by the media. Right. This has become one of the biggest issues, you know. And he mentioned that he was on this flight to Europe. And then he was sitting next to this gentleman and his wife. And he said that we were carrying a very cordial conversation with each other. Then he took his suitcase to take something out of it. And the lady saw the initials of his name on his suitcase, MX.
She asked him, what kind of name is that? And he told her, my name is Malcolm X. She said, for almost 10 minutes, there was complete silence of the couple. Then the lady told him, you can't be Malcolm X. He said, he just had this kind of image about me that the media created in their mind. And the same thing, he was saying the same thing whenever he talks about Africa. This image making about Africa. Especially at that time, you see, the only voice of liberation about Africa, you know, the 60s or the years of liberation in Africa. And this is one of the things that attracted me to Malcolm. He was the only voice defending the Africans in the Middle East. At that time, the problem of the Congo, the problem of South Africa, Angola, Mozambique, Vietnam. And in fact, one of the reasons that the student body decided to invite him, because 1963, this was the climax of the Vietnam War. And no one was addressing this problem, you see. And it was only Malcolm who was really addressing these international issues with the student body. So it's very amazing that it's amazing that it seems like he precedes all the other leaders in talking about the issues that would make others unpopular.
He proceeds not just in speaking about the issues of Africa, but in fact, even some of the issues as you brought up, Vietnam, Japan, the nuclear bombings, you know, Nagasaki and Hiroshima, Palestine, Gaza, going to Palestine in 1964. As well as speaking up for the Palestinian cause. So can you tell me a bit about, from your perspective, what is it about Malcolm that you think that made him so unwavering and so ready to embrace any issue of injustice that he saw, not thinking about the consequences of it? I mean, did you, can you recall something about him that you felt like any time he saw that injustice, he immediately selflessly became a voice for justice for those peoples? Can you recall something about that? I mean, what do you think it was about him? In fact, one of his statements was, I am for justice, no matter for whom and or against whom. So he had this kind of, you know, I mean, principle, you know, right is right and wrong is wrong. And in fact, when they asked him to debate at Oxford University, the issue that he was given to debate about, whether extremism in the defense of justice, is a virtue or a vice. And in fact, this was a quotation, I think, that goes back to Goldwater. I mean, Governor Goldwater.
And he said extremism in the defense of justice is a virtue, is not a vice. And he said, in fact, moderation in the defense of justice is a vice, is not a virtue. And I think all this emanates from the injustice that he experienced from his childhood. How they were driven out of place of his birth in Omaha, Nebraska, to East Lansing, to Milwaukee, Ferris, then to East Lansing, when they burned their home, when he was five years old. You know, his father, you know, I mean, being killed by the clans and then not letting his close-knit family, his brothers and sisters, to live together. Pressuring his mother until she got a nervous breakdown. Sending her to, you know, I mean, this clinic in New York, mental hospital. And then, you know, when he was released from the prison, the first thing he did, he went to the hospital to visit his mother.
So when he entered the room of his mother and stood there looking at her, telling her mother, she started staring at him, not recognizing him. He said, that was the most moving moment in my life. My mother, who gave birth to me, does not recognize me. He said, this is an injustice that a society can inflict on its individual. And then when he was imprisoned, he said that he was given a number, not his name. He said, giving a number to a person rather than his name dehumanizes the person. You see, you give a person the moment he's more, you give him his name. Then you take away his name, you give him a number, as if he is not a human being, he's a thing. And this is one of the reasons that they started going down to their roots, rejecting their names, because this is not the name that were given to us. And amazingly enough, it was him who led Alex Haley to write the Book of Roots. Alex Haley got the sense of roots from Malcolm, because they were the first people to go and dig out their names. And when they could not find their names, they have to put the letter X, unknown.
Dr. Ahmed, I think there are so many angles that we could take, and I think there's so much to say about the unappreciated contribution of Malcolm. And every time you dig deep, you find that he influenced someone in a way that has not been previously appreciated. And from his selflessness, Malcolm didn't care for the credit, he cared for the impact. And I think that you always see people attribute what Malcolm had done for them and how Malcolm inspired them to carry on certain projects. And then you have the legacy of Malcolm, which is constantly debated. You talked about image making, the way that Malcolm can be disconnected from his roots. And I want to talk about that in two ways. Number one, what do you think is the greatest misunderstanding of Malcolm X in the image of Malcolm today? Or as you see the way that he's projected, where do you see a gap, having been such a close personal friend to him? Where do you see the gap immediately as you see the portrayals of Malcolm today? You see, for instance, Malcolm was criticized by a proverb that he coined. By any means necessary. So they used to interpret this statement of his as if he means violence. Now this has become a common uttering of politicians, of the presidents. Former President Trump mentioned this so many times. How can we learn from him with some sort of belief that we have literalarrassment against that story, deserving because we see that despite his northwestern Ukraine, Sudan, we like Pentagon tojuskra hudaisthiyaj in East Triumvirate, that is actually in the midst of the process of free
inside the Trump pouser radar through that space in Syria. So many times, so many leaders have been mentioned by any means necessary. But at Malcolm's time, they ascribed as if Malcolm means violence. But Malcolm, you know, first of all, it really showed the shrewdness of his mind. And then as that documentary that was named, Make It Plain, that was also a statement of Malcolm. To address the people with the simplest kind of knowledge, make it for them very plain, you see. So even when he used to tell them, you see, if somebody comes, knocks your door to talk to you, if you speak English and he speaks to you in Chinese, you will not understand him. If you speak French, you will not understand him. So he has to speak your own language for you to communicate. So he said, this is what I'm saying. And he said, we are not advocating any violence. But when somebody comes out being violent against you, you are given every right as a human being, you know, to oppose that violence. And this is given you by law. You have to defend yourself. And in fact, aggression comes against you when you don't defend yourself against aggressive violence against yourself. Because you will be considered weak and the aggressor will repeat his aggression. So the only way to stop violent aggression is to show that you are ready to sacrifice yourself. I think that was very much vivid in an event in New York where the police, I think, hit one of the members of the Nation of Islam.
And I think they took him to the police precinct. So all the Muslims went there in front of the police station. And they stood there. And they insisted that the police should take this person to the hospital. And the police refused. And then Malcolm came and the crowd started growing and growing and growing. So in the end, the police found that these people were not dispersed. They agreed to take the person to the hospital. At that time, Malcolm waved to the people with his hand to disperse. All the people dispersed. And the head of the police made this famous statement. No person should be allowed to have such power. And amazingly, although they used to accuse him of violence, but of all the people, of all the black people, except for that incident in Los Angeles, the white police or the clans, they would never approach violently members of the Nation of Islam. But when the peaceful marches are there, even King himself, they would attack them with water hoses, with police dogs, and all of this. I mean, even King, with all his nonviolence, with all of his support he had among the white people.
Look how they used to treat him when he goes on these marches. What do you think, so religiously there is the change, and Ambassador Atallah Shabazz will always sort of speak about the evolution of Malcolm and not simply making it a 1964 to 1965, because there is a growth and a clear leaning that happens from 1959 onwards. Politically speaking, what do you think the greatest transition of Malcolm is as he is approaching the assassination in February of 1965, between the Hajj and that assassination? What do you think is the greatest political development in Malcolm's thought? Well, you see, Malcolm really was way ahead of his organization, the Nation of Islam. He wanted political engagement from the beginning, but he was being held back by the leadership or by the leader of the Nation of Islam, Elijah Muhammad. And as such, he was seeing that if they would have engaged with other organizations, the pace of civil rights would have been quicker. And also it is very important, the distinction of Malcolm from civil rights leaders and Martin Luther King. Malcolm's strategy was that the struggle of the black man is not a struggle for civil rights, it's a struggle for human rights.
And as such, he linked the struggle of the blacks in America with the struggle for human rights internationally, in Africa, in Vietnam, in Latin America, wherever there are human rights violations. And this was very important. And Malcolm said, look here, our civil rights are there in the Constitution. You know, I don't have to fight for civil rights, but it is our human rights which are being violated. Furthermore, he said that in order to bring leverage domestically, if I argue for civil rights, I cannot bring any leverage on the federal government because it is there in the Constitution, as he would say. But when I say our human rights are being violated, well, there is the Charter of the United Nations as far as the human rights. So just like we are taking South Africa and other colonial powers to the United Nations for violating the human rights of the people there, we can do the same thing. We can go to the United Nations, bring the issue of human rights being violated in the United States. And I think that was a red line as far as the government, the American government was concerned. And furthermore, I think Malcolm started, especially after he split from the Nation of Islam,
he wanted, I mean, vigorously to tie the struggle for human rights in America with the struggle in Africa and internationally. So in his speeches, he always used to refer to the Conference of Bandung, where, as he used to say, there came all the nations of people who are not white and made the Bandung Agreement, including, of course, China, you see, and Asian countries and African countries. So they got together in order to defend the rights of the third world countries. And so when he was in Africa, he was in Nairobi. Then I think the King Organization, they got a bit concerned, and I think the American government also got concerned about Malcolm mobilizing the Africans and trying to unite the struggle of the blacks here with the struggle of the Africans. And in fact, Malcolm used to say after he makes a visit to Africa, the United States Information Agency will endorse one of these singers or jazz musicians to go on tour Africa to ameliorate, you know, the kind of impact that he already has been spreading in Africa.
So in 1964, leadership of core organization went on a tour to Africa. So they flew, I think, to Ghana. From there, they went to Zambia. I think it was Independence, anniversary of Zambia. Then from there, they went to Nairobi. So when they arrived there, Malcolm was in Nairobi. And heading that group was John Lewis, the late John Lewis. So John Lewis and his delegation, they got together with Malcolm in the hotel there in Nairobi. And they had a long conversation. And Malcolm tells them, look here, your organization and our organization, even we are going in parallel ways, this itself is a struggle. And ultimately, our struggles is going to converge. And in fact, John Lewis really came to the recognition after that trip, that the way to go ahead was Malcolm's way. And in fact, for people who have read John Lewis interviews in 1986, I think it was broadcast by NPR. It comes out very clearly. And in fact, one of the people, the executive secretary of CORE,
the Student for Nonviolent Coordination, he attended Malcolm X's funeral. And Rustin also, who was the organizer of the March for Washington, he was present there, including James Farmer. So the young people, black American young people, were really saying that it was time that we go, especially after Malcolm split from the Nation of Islam. And he opened his new organization to all the black groups, irrespective of religion. They found that that was a way ahead. Can I ask you something that was very fascinating about the film, the recent film? You said something that was very intriguing. I think it sprints from Malcolm internationalizing the problem of black people in America and connecting the human rights struggle here to human rights struggles around the world, particularly in Africa, and embarrassing the United States government, putting the United States government, which had claimed a sort of immunity. And we know in international relations, due to colonial power, can often still do that, can claim some sort of immunity to where it's not held to the same standards that it uses to invade and carry out all sorts of foreign endeavors in different parts of the world. You said something that really struck me, which was Malcolm's connection to France. I had always sort of looked into Malcolm's writings about France and his particular last trip to France. And you said that Malcolm found a connection of his two worlds, the African Muslims in France being ghettoized in the same way that black people in America were. Could you speak a little bit about that? Because I think that was very fascinating, especially with what's happening now with French Muslims,
the ghettoizing of French Muslims, the mass incarceration, the targeting of Muslim institutions, predominantly African immigrants in France. Can you speak about that connection in Malcolm's mind and in his heart and what that meant to him? Yes. By the way, whenever Malcolm used to go to Africa, when he goes to Ghana, he used to be the guest of Nkrumah. In Guinea, he was the host of the president, Sikotori. And these two leaders, they were the pioneers of African independence. Nkrumah represented the Anglophone countries because Ghana was colonized by Britain. Sikotori represented the Francophone because Guinea was a colony of France. And in fact, Sikotori's grand people stood against the French when they came to colonize Guinea. And they really sacrificed thousands of people, were killed in opposing French colonialism. And when France started giving independence to the colonies, it asked them to be independent within the community of France or to be completely independent. So of all the Francophone colonies, Guinea is the only country which has decided to ask complete independence from France.
While the other countries started using the French currency and being part of the French. And even Senghor represented Senegal in the French parliament. But the French, because of that stance, isolated Guinea completely. They refused to let the other countries to trade with Guinea. So they tried to strangle it economically. That's why Sikotori turned to Russia and to the Soviet bloc. And as you know, most of the people who come from West Africa, because they are French educated, they go to France. And of course, most of these countries, the majority of them are Muslims. So there was quite a presence of the Africans, Muslims in France. Furthermore, one of the most prominent individuals was Francois Fanon, famous from the island of Martingize. He was a psychologist. And he wrote a very famous book. If I recall the title of it, White Masks, Black Skin, something like that. And he full heartedly supported the Algerian revolution, Francois Fanon.
And of course, the Algerians in the liberation struggle, they sacrificed over a million martyrs. And in his lectures, even at Dartmouth, Malcolm made the statement. In fact, he was, part of his speech was speaking about what is a revolution. He was trying to educate the people the meaning of a revolution. And he said, a revolution is always based on land. And he said, in fact, when France wanted to give its colonies, community within the French nation, he said, the African told, the Algerian told them, to hell with your community. We want our land back. So this was very important. Every revolution is based on land. In fact, what was the reason for the colonialism? It was possession of the land. And in fact, if we go to Africa, we find two types of colonialism. Settler colonialism, like Algeria, like Kenya, like Rhodesia, and South Africa. And these are countries where these colonialists came to take the land as if it is their land. Other countries like Sudan and Nigeria, this was for economic exploitation. So they invited Malcolm to come and lecture there.
So Malcolm, after his, I think after his speech at Oxford University, he decided to go there. And when he flew there, at that time, the air was very cold. The airport was Orly Airport. It wasn't yet Deagle Airport. So at the airport, the authority told him that you are forbidden to enter France. Malcolm just couldn't believe it. Because previously he was in France, he visited France. And he told them he wanted to make a call to the American embassy. They refused to let him make a call. And he retorted, he said, I don't know where I am. I am in Paris or I am in South Africa. And there is some interpretation where he was forbidden. Because first of all, he came to England where he made a lecture at the most well-known university, Oxford University. He has been before to France. Why are they refusing him to let him to France? There is a hypothesis which says that the French knew that he was going to be killed. And they didn't want him to be killed on the French soil. Otherwise, they would hold France to be responsible. Wow. I see. Because at that time, he knew that he was going to be killed at any moment. He told Malik Badri after the Hajj in Beirut that he would be killed.
When he was in England, he visited this other university where the Sudanese professor invited him. And he told him that he was going to be killed. And he was saying that he will not read, he will not live to read his autobiography. And after he came back on the 14th of February, his house was bombed the very night in which he arrived. Two o'clock in the morning. And they threw this molotov bombs into his home. And amazingly, they accused him that it was he who bombed his home. And look, his home is bombed two o'clock in the morning. He takes the family to an acquaintance's home. The same day, he flies to Detroit to give a lecture there. And that lecture is recorded where you could find him coughing from the smoke that he inhaled. You see? Do you think that was a... You know, it seems like Malcolm was always extremely selfless. He put everyone before himself. Oh, yes. You see, his friends, they knew he was going to be killed. After, even before his home was bombed, already the case to evict him was in the court. So they offered him, of course, he had no money even for rental. Not only that, he couldn't find a house to rent.
Everybody was refusing to rent a house for him. He didn't have, you know, life insurance. So his friends offered him to stay with them. He refused. He said, I don't want you to be hurt because I know that they are after me. So if I stay at your home, they will target your home. So the day he was assassinated, only his children were staying with friends. He was staying in a hotel. And for the last few days, he was moving from one hotel to another. Dr. Ahmed, I think one of the things that you uniquely have insight into is Malcolm's spiritual training. And there's so much that comes out in sparks. One of them that Malcolm went to Umrah again in September. He said, I have to sharpen my spiritual eye. And I've seen places that there was an intention for him to go to Hajj even again. You know, you read about his experience in Madinah, where he said it was the most serenity he's ever felt in his life. He felt like he hadn't felt like that except like solitary confinement in prison because he felt such a sense of solitude. What can you say about Malcolm's spiritual development and his spiritual refinement? Did he tell you about that trip to Umrah by any chance? It was really in Hajj. You see, I think his awakening, I can see coming from the moment he landed in Cairo. In fact, the flight he took from New York to Frankfurt, next to him were two Muslims.
One was an Egyptian. One was from Saudi Arabia. So they were chatting with him. And then he decided to spend a couple of days in Cairo before going to Hajj. So this friend whom he met on the plane, he told him, OK, I will try to put you in touch with some of his friends who will be going to the Hajj. So he really put him in touch with some of his friends. So when he came, I think the flight was overbooked. And since he was booked late, they told him that, you know, he has to wait for another flight. But when the other people, they said, oh, this is a Black American Muslim coming from America. One of the people who was on that flight, he said, OK, I will delay my flight to the next flight. You're going my place. So he started feeling the change, how people started to treat him. So he said when he boarded the flight, he was invited to the cockpit by the pilot. And he said this was the first time in my life I entered a cockpit. He said I have flown east, west, north, south in America on so many flights. Nobody would let me into a cockpit. I hear for the first time I am invited into a cockpit, for the first time I see a Black man flying an airplane. It never occurred to us that Black people could fly planes. You see?
Then when he landed there, he didn't have a booking in a hotel. He didn't know anybody. In fact, he went to Hajj not knowing anyone was there. You see? Usually when you go to Hajj, beforehand you make preparation with the so-called mutawwif, who will meet you there at the airport, take you to the hotel, and have the whole plan for you. Here Malcolm not knowing anybody just pops up, you know, in Madinat al-Hujjaj. He stayed in Madinat al-Hujjaj for one week with some Iranians, other people, and unfortunately, you know, they didn't speak English. But he said they were speaking with their body movements, you know, eating with them, you know, all of this, until after the seventh day, you know, he was able to make that telephone call to Omar Azzam, the son of Abd al-Rahman Azzam. So they came and they take him to go and meet his father, Abd al-Rahman Azzam. And then he meets Azzam Bashar. Azzam, of course, if you see him, you think that, you know, he's just, you know, one of these white people, white individual. He said his hair is the blondest of the blond, blue eyes. And then he said, this is a person who calls him brother. You see, he said, the first time I see a white man calling me brother. You see. And then, of course, by that time, all the hotels are booked.
There is no place where they can book him. So Abd al-Rahman Azzam, because he's advisor to the king and he's related to the king, he has, you know, I mean, a place in the Qandar al-Palas Hotel. So he told him, OK, I will give you my suite in the hotel and I will move to my son's house to live with him. And he said, I started protesting. He said, no, no, no, no, no. You have to. And he said, look at this, this person. First of all, he said, my life in America taught me one thing. Nobody will give you something without something in return. Here there is this man. Who will lose everything in giving me something? He knows that I am being a labeled person as an extremist, as such and such and such and such. I am a Negro, a black person, a Negro. You know. He is not going to get anything from knowing me or giving me something. But he has given me all these things without asking something in return. So this is started, you know, really working in his mind. Then he said when he went to Grand Mosque in Mecca, the Kaaba, he said, when I stood there in front of the Kaaba,
very moving passage. He said, for the first time in my life, I felt my full humanity. He said, for the first time, I felt I am humanly complete. I never entertained that feeling before. And I felt I am like anybody else standing in front of my creator. So that was really the moment is his transformation. Did you, you know, you mentioned being around him in Salah, in prayer, Salat al-Jum'ah. I don't think many people have ever seen Malcolm pray, right? The way that, you know, except for the picture, the famous picture in Egypt and the picture of him in his room. Do you have any recollection of Malcolm learning how to pray? Yes, in fact, he describes it. You know, I mean, he started, of course, praying. He started, of course, from here after he accepted Orthodox Islam. You see, because in prayer, the prior prayer in the nation of Islam was not the traditional prayer of the Muslims. You know, you just sit in your chair. And in fact, they give you more or less like a political speech. You see, rather than ritual prayers as Muslims. The most difficult for him was when he comes and he sits down, you know, after the two raka'as. This was very difficult for him. So he has to learn how to put his foot, you know. So it was a kind of, you know, I mean, training he has to do.
And in fact, in the letters that he wrote to his sister Ella, he mentioned these things, that it is good that he came before her. Because when he comes back, he will teach the other Muslims the correct way of prayer. And fortunately, of course, the Muslim Religious League sent the late Sheikh Ahmed Hassoun to be his religious advisor and to teach the others about Orthodox Islam. And when he came, in fact, Malcolm hosted him in his home for three months before moving him to Teresa Hotel. And Sheikh Hassoun, in fact, he used to look to him like his father, you know. And he was about maybe 60 years old at that time or more. And Sheikh Hassoun, of course, witnessed the assassination. He was sitting in the front row next to his children and his wife. And for him, you know, the first time in his life, he told me he hears sound of a bullet, you see. And he said, my son, it was bullets raining. This is how he described for me the assassination. He said, I never witnessed even a bullet, not to say about a rain of bullets. So before we get to the assassination, just it was interesting that we were talking about this before Ramadan.
Malcolm was you know, he had only one Ramadan and it's not really spoken about at all. He mentions in the Oxford Union speech that he's a Muslim and he affirms the five pillars of Islam. Do you remember him ever talking about fasting or not fasting or Ramadan or anything of that sort? Because it would have ended right before his assassination. His first Ramadan ends right before his assassination. Yes, in fact, Ramadan just ended before his assassination. When he came to Dartmouth on the 26th of January, it was Ramadan. I remember it very well because I was fasting. And by the way, I was the only one who used to fast on the whole campus. So there was only one person who was fasting Ramadan. So when he came, I was fasting. And so the student asked him, how come? Because next day they prepared the breakfast. You know, when he came, we had dinner, but that was after the sun set down. But on the following day, the student prepared for him in the guest house breakfast. And we had breakfast with him. So they asked Malcolm, how come you're not fasting? And he said, well, OK, I should be fasting. But he said, in Islam, if you are traveling or if you are sick or if you have a woman who is feeding a child, these categories are given allowance to break the fast on condition that they either make it later after Ramadan
or they pay money in lieu of fasting to the poor people. So he was really quite versed in Islam. Dr. Ahmed, what was, when he was talking about sort of the lead up to this assassination, there seems to be a stunning calm with the idea of shahada, with the idea of being a martyr. Did he ever talk to you about being a martyr, about what that would be like and what that meant? Of course, whenever he was saying that, he would be killed. You know, I mean, that in fact, he made in fact that statement also. I think it was a radio station interview one day before his assassination. He was going to be martyred. And he knew about it. And he knew, of course, that is the highest aspiration, you know, in fighting for justice. Because, you know, I mean, jihad is mean, you know, fighting for justice. You see, it is not as interpreted in the Western literature to go and fight. You see, in fact, in the Hadith, it is said one of the biggest signs of jihad is to speak to the face of an unjust ruler, Sultan al-Jair, you see. So that is a kind of the shahada. Dr. Ahmed, can you, what is your last recollection of a conversation with Malcolm? And what is your, what was he like personally, you know, when you were with him? What do you remember most about his personality?
And what is your last recollection of sitting with him? You see, first of all, it is not only mine, but anyone who knew Malcolm. Especially the white people, individuals who knew him. If you sit with Malcolm person to person, he is not this Malcolm that you read about or see in the speeches or in videos. He was the most humble, shy person you could ever meet. You see. First of all, even whites. When he speaks about discrimination, about racism, he never makes you feel as an individual that it is you that he's addressing. He makes you feel that he joins you to solve this problem. And that is why whenever Hawaiians used to come to him, especially that girl, after he gave, I think, a lecture at Yale or Brown, and came running to him, how can I help? And he used to tell them that, you can help us most in your own community. And I think that was a very far sighted. Because when I come as a black man, and I come and talk to your community, the perception is different from when one of your own people, white people, will talk to your community.
Because there, there will not be that psychological barrier that is in the back of the minds, especially the older generation of all the people. In fact, I have one of my closest friends, he's a great archeologist, who has worked for almost over 40 or 50 years in Egypt and in Sudan. I met him last year in Sudan. He's from Virginia. And we started talking about, you know, I mean, racism. And he told me how much widespread it was at his time when he was young in Virginia, even in his own household. But he said, when it comes, the issue comes among our family members, he said, we try not to talk about it, not to face the issue. So this is, I think, one of the biggest problems which has made this systemic racism, you know, last so long in America. And this is what Malcolm used to say. He used to say, I really prefer the Southern, the clans and the Southern races to those who are in the North. Because these people, at least I know them, and they speak up their mind. But in the North, it is there, it is systemic. And this is more difficult to fight against.
Now, this is what, after all these years, after the civil rights, you know, in 1964, you know, we come and we find ourselves, even we think, in fact, my school friends from Dartmouth, when they write to me, they told me, we are really thinking we are still living in the 60s. We are not in the 21st century. We have been taken back. So, Dr. Ahmed, if you can take me to the moment that you heard that Malcolm had been assassinated, and what that felt like, and what you did in those few hours after. Well, it was, I remember it very well. It was a Sunday afternoon. I was in the gym on that day. Then, a little after two o'clock in the afternoon, I was going to my dormitory. Midway through the campus, one of my friends, of course, I was very well known on the campus after Malcolm's visit for having contributed to his coming to Hanover. So, this friend of mine, he asked me, did you hear the news? I asked him, what news? He told me, Malcolm has been assassinated. I said, I don't believe it. I really did not believe it. I thought he was just pulling my leg. So, I ran to my dormitory, to my room. I opened the radio, and all the news,
all the stations, nothing but Malcolm has been assassinated. Well, I decided to go to New York. Of course, I was a student. And the nearest airport is in Vermont, White River Junction. So, I don't think there were flights every day. The only available means of transport was the Greyhound. So, I took a midnight Greyhound bus to New York. It was an eight-hour drive. So, I went to Teresa Hotel. I tried to find Sheikh Hassoun. I couldn't find him. So, anyway, I asked him to direct me to his wife, Betty Shabazz. So, I went and I gave her my condolences. And I asked her, how can I help you? She said, we want to have a Muslim, a Muslim Orthodox funeral for him. And we want your help. I said, okay, I will do it. And she said, okay. Well, at that time, unfortunately, Dr. Mahmoud Al-Shawarbi, who knew Malcolm, and who was the one who made for him the shahada in writing and signed it,
he already went back to Cairo. In his place, there came another sheikh from Al-Azhar University. So, I called him and I talked to him and I told him to come and give his condolences to the family. And that the funeral rites are going to be the following. I believe it was Sunday, 27th of February. And that he should come and lead the funeral prayers. So, he agreed. So, after that, of course, I went back to Dartmouth. And on the day of the funeral, I came very early to Boston. I think three or four brothers, one from Harvard, and then a couple we picked from Brown University in Rhode Island, decided to go with me. So, we drove to New York. So, when we came to Connecticut, our car broke down. So, we took it to a garage. And of course, all the radio stations were talking about nothing but the funeral of Malcolm X. So, I was pressuring the garage guy to fix the car for us. I said, why are you in a hurry? I said, you know, we are going for the funeral. Funeral?
I said, yes. He refused to fix the car. Okay, so my friends have to take it to another place. So, we got concerned that we may miss the funeral. So, they asked me to take the train and they will come after me. So, I took the train. Fortunately, I came in time to Harlem. And I went, I recorded, it was the coldest day I could ever remember it. And people, thousands of people in the streets, queuing to try to get a chance to see the body or be able to get into the funeral house. So, when I got into the funeral house, I started asking about, I don't want to mention his name, the director of the Islamic Center with whom I agreed to lead the prayers. I couldn't find him. So, I started calling his number. He wouldn't answer. So, of course, the sad thing was that the media and the official government, United States Government Agency, started discouraging people to go to the funeral to isolate Malcolm. In fact, Malcolm has so many friends, especially at the United Nations. All the African ambassadors were his friends. People in Harlem, civil rights leaders.
And then the media started a kind of building up hysteria, that on this day, there is going to be riots, bloodshed, because people are coming from Chicago, from the Nation of Islam. There's going to be confrontation between the two groups. And this whole thing was built up because on the day Malcolm was killed, his previous center, I mean, his previous temple, Mohammed Temple Number Seven, which by that time was already run by the Nation of Islam, the whole building went on fire, although it was under security. It was burned down. So the whole of New York, you know, policemen, especially in Harlem, on the rooftops, it was just, you know, I mean, the stores were closed. So they built this atmosphere of fear. Not only that, but in fact, we had a lot of difficulty in finding a church where the funeral rites would be held, because they were threatening them that they are going to bomb the churches where they are going to hold the funeral rites. So I met Ossie Davis on that day, and I told him, okay, I will be speaking on behalf of the Muslims,
and I will be speaking on behalf of the Africans. So he agreed in consultation with the other people who were in charge. And when that happened, you see, at what point do you see Sheikh Hisham Jabir? Had you met Sheikh Hisham prior to that janaza? Amazingly, I didn't know Sheikh Hisham. And then I was really, of course, if Hisham didn't show up, I would have come down and led the funeral prayers. But alhamdulillah, fortunately, here I see Sheikh Hisham coming in with his companions, and that really saved the day for us. And unfortunately, there were some of these Muslims in Brooklyn, I think, and rather than coming to the funeral from the day of Malcolm assassination, or what they were saying that, okay, according to the Muslim tradition, you have to bury Malcolm before sundown. They never showed before sundown, or they never showed after sundown, unfortunately. And I wasn't, of course, prepared to give a speech, so I was just put on the spot. So, Ossie Davis, he was there with his wife, Ruby,
and he introduced me to give the speech, the first speech. And on the funeral day, in the morning, came the statement of the highest ranking African American, or as they used to say at that time, the highest ranking Negro in the American government, Karl Rowan. He was the highest black people in the government. He was the director of the United States Information Agency. So, on the day of the funeral, of course, there was a very strong reaction in Africa of the assassination of Malcolm. In Asia, in Pakistan, Indonesia, in England, in Europe, very strong reaction. And there was implications that the government was involved in his assassination. So, here comes Karl Rowan, blasting Africans, that their reaction was unjustified because they did not know who Malcolm was, that Malcolm was a racist, an ex-thief, a pimp, a hustler, calling him all kinds of names. So, I was quite upset, and I had in my hand the New York Times paper of that day, where it was published.
So, I started my speech correcting Karl Rowan's statement and saying, here I have known Malcolm for the last three years and that his life falls into three distinct stages. First stage was until he went to prison. Second stage, when he was with the Nation of Islam. Third stage, after his pilgrimage to Mecca. And that Malcolm, after his pilgrimage to Mecca, he has lived his life as an Orthodox Muslim. We accepted him as an Orthodox Muslim brother. And since his pilgrimage to Mecca, he has never advocated any notion of separatism, any notion of racism, or any notion of speaking about violence. And that, although we have lost a dear brother, we have lost a dear sister. But we should know that in Islam, the highest aspiration that any Muslim can aspire to is not to die on his bedside, but to die as a martyr. Because those who die as a martyr are not dead, but they are alive. Alhamdulillah, all the audience were quite moved to the extent that they started shouting, right brother, right brother. So after that, of course, O.J. Davis
made his beautiful, eloquent speech, which has become a masterpiece of speech. As you know, a lot of people who knew Malcolm so well wanted to come and make a statement, but they were inhibited by the levers of power. They couldn't come. As O.J. Davis mentioned, our living, our bread depends on them. That's why they were hesitant, but O.J. and his wife, Ruby, they had the courage to surmount all these obstacles and to come and give that beautiful speech. And after that, they criticized O.J. Davis so much, how come you give such a speech? And he has to reply and make a written statement why he came. And made that speech. In fact, after the funeral, when we went to cemetery, came the professionals diggers to bury him. And we stopped them. We said, no, you will not do that. He is a Muslim. A Muslim are going to bury him as a Muslim. And we made the prayer there. And we are the one who buried him there. Do you remember what that felt like, Dr. Ahmed?
Moments of, I'm sure you've prayed many janazahs in life and buried many people. Well, brother, it is very difficult, really. To recollect these moments, you know. When I heard of his assassination, that was the first time in my life that I wept. The same thing at his funeral. So it was such a moving thing, you know. And people there, thousands of people in the streets, you know, they were crying, you know. You see. Because, you know, he used to say, I really don't care about what happened to me. In fact, what he used to care about, his immediate family, his children, and his people. You see. And he was, he never was afraid of death. He said, so many people in my family died young, and I know that I will die young. So there was no fear of death for him. And then a person who fought not only for his people and his country, but he fought worldwide for justice. You know. Wherever there is people oppressed, irrespective of their color, be they white, yellow, or black, he felt this is his struggle.
His struggle was not bound by color, it was not bound by race, it was not bound by geography. And that is what is a true Muslim. Because a Muslim is not bound by race, or by geography, or by nationality. Dr. Ahmed, can I ask you about Dr. Betty Shabazz. I think a lot of times we lose sight of some of these figures in the background. Ella Collins, rahimahallah, who finances the hajj of Malcolm, his sister. And Dr. Betty Shabazz, rahimahallah, who is such a powerful woman. And I know she went to hajj immediately after Malcolm. Yes, yes, yes, brother. Really, what she has gone through is no less than what her husband has gone through. Because look here, you know, living under this threat, you know, they used to call her in the last days of Malcolm. Call her on the phone, that we are going to kill the family, we are going to kill Malcolm, we are going to do this, we are going to do this. Living through that. Then most of the time, especially after Malcolm made the hajj, he was away from home for so many months. She is taking these children, all of them under four years old, you see. And without income, you see. The last thing that Malcolm got was honorarium, you know, that was given to him, you know, for his speech, you see. Then suddenly they, you know, bombed their home. They become homeless.
They have no home. Nobody will rent for them a home. And then with these children, her husband is killed. She has no home. No income. You know. So really on the day of the funeral, and then over this, you could hardly imagine the weight of the negative propaganda that was coming from the press, from the TV, from the media. From the radio. Every hour. You see. She in fact had to confront the, on the day of the, she told them, you know, you accuse him that he is the one whom you blamed him for bombing his home. Now you are going to say that he killed himself. So seeing that kind of agony and the burden that she was carrying. I thought the best thing for her was to leave the country. So fortunately the Hajj was coming. So I told her, look here, Betty. I think it is very good for you. Anyway, the children are very young. You see. I think you should get out of the country. So if you agree, there is a Hajj coming. And I will try to see if we can arrange that you can join the Hajj. So she agreed. And Alhamdulillah it happened that year, the World Muslim League invited 50 Europeans to perform the Hajj.
And all these are Europeans, white Europeans, you know. So we started making contacts to try to include her in that group. And, but as you know in the Hajj, especially coming from abroad, you have to come with a muhram. Somebody who will accompany you. And of course, I couldn't find somebody, you know, who could accompany her. And for me, you know, it was a bit difficult because I was a student. It was my last final year. I was a senior. My graduation was coming in June. My graduation was coming in June. So I thought it over. And I said, fortunately, Dartmouth College was running on what used to be called a tri-system semester. So I thought if they would allow me, I could take the spring term off. And then come and make it up in the summer and graduate by myself at the end of the summer. So I applied to the college that I have applied for Hajj. And I have been given, you know, an opportunity to make the Hajj. If they can give me leave for the spring term. And the college, you know, very understandably. Of course, I didn't tell them that I am accompanying.
I just tell them that I want to make the Hajj. But I don't think they would have minded because, you know, they do respect, you know. Religious justifications. So they asked me, OK, you can take, you know, the spring term off. So they gave me the spring term off. So I accompanied half of Hajj. And Alhamdulillah, we left without anybody knowing. Just like Malcolm, when he went to Hajj, he didn't tell anyone. Just his family or two or three friends. And when he arrived in Lebanon. We stayed overnight before taking the flight to Jeddah. And we arranged for an interview. For Betty. By the owner of the leading Lebanese paper. And. He was a very well noted journalist. The paper was his paper. And he made an interview with her. And that was the time that the world knew that Betty was on her way for the Hajj. And Alhamdulillah, when we went to Hajj. We were guests. Of the World Muslim League. And. Everything was made at ease for us. And. But we were really overwhelmed. By people. Coming to give their condolences. So. We have to, you know, I mean.
Because Hajj was coming and you have to prepare. Physically for it. First time for her to go there. And in 1965, by the way. Hajj was not as easy as it is now. Amazingly, you know. You know. One evening. Betty, she told me that. Ahmet, could you get me some ice cream? I told her, Betty, ice cream. I don't know where I can get some ice cream anyway. They used to make some kind of traditional ice cream. You know. I was able to get her ice cream, but not the ice cream I used to make. I used to make one, but. I was able to get her ice cream, but not the ice cream I used to make. That was not possible. You know. I was able to get her ice cream, but not the ice cream that you eat in America. Anyway, since we were guests of the government. It was easy for us, but. It was very difficult. Very difficult. And then, after the hatch. King Faisal was so courteous. He gave an audience. To Betty Shabazz. He gave her the condolences. And I will never forget it. He told her, look here, Betty. My country is your country. If you. And your children would like to come and live here. Welcome. It is your country. So I was really quite moved. He was the only. What you can say. Head of a state. Who came. Forthrightly giving whatever help. The family needed. You see. And.
He was shortly assassinated as well. Yes. Not only that. Would you believe. Kamil Maruwa. Was assassinated as well. Yeah. In Beirut. Dr. Ahmed. What do you remember? Betty talking about how she felt after. You know, there's a. There's a passage somewhere. You know that. That she talked about. Being like. Having a particular. Moment. She had four daughters. Is pregnant with twins. And had with you. You know, I'm not. And people are coming to have condolences. Do you remember any words from her? About her experience? Yes, of course. You know, I mean. First of all. Marwa. The place where. You know. Ismail was there. With his mother. All of this really. Gave her quite a relief. You see. And the way that people. You know. Really, you know. She was under so much pressure. You know. And for the first time. Finding people who appreciated. What her husband. Has done. You know. Feeling so much attachment. To her. And to her family. And the people whom they represented. You know. This was really quite lifting. You know. And you see. In life. In moments like this. What is most precious. Is the spiritual lifting at the time. More than any kind of material thing. You see. That is what a person needs. You see. And this is what Malcolm felt. And appreciated most. And Alhamdulillah. His wife came. And later on. His daughter. You see. And.
You see this. And this was my first pilgrimage. You know. And. Fortunately enough. My father was there. In that Hajj. With a big delegation from Sudan. And then. There were so many people. Of course. You know. There was Haji Amin Al Husseini. You see. In the Hajj. All the heads of the states. Of the Muslim countries. Come to the Hajj. So. You really meet. You know. I mean. Rank and file of the Muslims. You meet all the dignitaries. Of the world who come there. And you meet them. The beauty of the Hajj is that. You meet them as individuals. You know. You cannot tell a king. From a beggar. They are dressed in the same way. You know. In fact. Malcolm when he was. Staying at the hotel. Before the Hajj started. He found the next door. Somebody. Going down. In a big gown. To the lounge. And then he introduced himself. To the gentleman. And he found that he was meeting whom? Haji Amin Al Husseini. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. You see. He met there. A member of the Turkish parliament. You see. Ahmed Obello. Used to come every month. Every Hajj there. The Prime Minister of Northern Nigeria. So Hajj is a really. I call it. The real equalizer. Of human beings. That is the only thing. That equalizes. People. Worldwide. Nothing equalizes.
People as a Hajj. It brings a king. To the level of a common man. You see. And ideally that should be maintained. You know a lot has changed since. Yes. Yes. There's a lot of ice cream. There's Hardee's and McDonald's. Oh yes. You see. There are many things. Which we have to look at it. Again. Which in a way. You know. Comes against the spirit of Hajj. Because now there are more than 2 million people. Who make the Hajj. Right. Security has become so much. So much concern. Previously. In the same tent. You find people of so many different. Nationalities. You see. You find Europeans. Americans. Africans and all of this. Now unfortunately. There is a kind of a grouping. By countries. So that you don't meet. As much. People from other countries. As it used to be. Within the countries. Right. So VIP and deluxe and economy. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you see. I mean. Even people. For instance. For instance. Look at the. The import. Of making the Hajj. Not being in Mecca. Where the Kaaba is. But in Arafat. There is a whole. Meaning in that. In that thing. Why is it that God made. If you miss standing in Arafat. You miss the Hajj. Even if you stayed in Mecca for one month. Even if you stayed in Mecca for one month. Because Arafat. Is an open space.
There are no hotels. Everybody miss everybody else. Where everybody is equalized. In front of God. But in Mecca. You either. In Hilton Hotel. Or in the five. Four seasons. Or eight seasons. Or whatever it is. You get distinguished by your wealth. You know. But. While in the Quran. He said. Okay. By cars. By donkeys. By you know. I have my. Grandfathers and uncles. Who made it from. Mecca to Medina. Walking on foot. Not by plane. You know. I remember my father. He made the first Hajj. In 1952. And at that time. The Sudanese were the richest. With the richest in Africa. In the Middle East. Because we had the so called. Al-Jazeera scheme. Or the long stable cotton. Or the most prized cotton. So Sudanese were very well to do. So my father had this. What you can say. Which is foldable. It's not like this. Airbag. Much more sophisticated. You know. It folds. And you can spread it. He took it with him. You see. To sleep on it. Rather than sleep you know. In a hotel. But now things have become so. You know. So, you know, I mean, industrialized, you know? That we are losing a lot of the spirit of the Hajj. Dr. Ahmed, did you have the chance to attend the janaza of Dr. Badi Shabazz Ali Al-Hamd?
Unfortunately, no. Because I was overseas. I was in Kuwait at that time. Yeah, Alhamdulillah. I really missed her janaza. But I came here when they were making the documentary, the film of Spike Lee. You see, when they decided to make the film, she was looking for me to advise Spike Lee. And she just couldn't find me. And the reason was that at that time I was in Kuwait. And Kuwait was invaded in August 1990. And after one week from invasion, I found the situation was really deteriorating. So I wanted to take my family to Saudi Arabia and come back. So I just put my family, left everything in my home, took my family in the car, we drove across the desert to Saudi Arabia. And by the time we entered the following day, they closed the borders. So I couldn't go back. So I was in Saudi Arabia and nobody knew my address. So I came, I think, in 1991 to New York. I got in touch with Betty. She told me, where are you? We have been looking for you everywhere. I said, well, I was either in the desert or I was just fleeing from Kuwait. I had no address. When I arrived Jeddah, I got two letters.
One from the director, head of the class of 56, my sponsors. And one from, yeah, director of international student hospice in New York, where I used to stay when I came to New York and where I stayed when I came for the funeral. So he sent a letter to Dartmouth and Dartmouth forwarded it to my address in Jeddah. So anyway, I came to New York and so Betty asked me, they already made a raw film. So if you can sit with Spike Lee and review it. So I sat and I saw the raw film. And I gave my advice to edit certain parts of the film. And it was agreed and that I think, after that, yeah, after that, I was in Kuwait from 1981. I didn't come back after that. So I miss her funeral. Dr. Ahmed, you've been, mashallah, very generous with your time. And on behalf of, I think, many of us who have learned so much from the example of Malcolm X and have benefited from the sacrifices of Malcolm and Betty, Jazakum Allahu anna khairah. May Allah reward you for all that you did, for your friendship and your companionship and your being there. And all of the good that you have put forth. We could not be anywhere without the sacrifices of pioneers.
And you're certainly one of them. And I really appreciate all the time that you've given us tonight. And I ask Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala to bless you and your health and to bless your family and to accept you and to accept from you. And I pray that Allah join us with the righteous, that amongst them be Malcolm and Dr. Betty as well, with the prophets, with the shuhada, with the sidiqoon, and the highest level of Jannatul Firdaus. Allahumma ameen. So Jazakum Allahu khair. And once again, thank you so much for your time and for all of that, that you've given us in this history that you've given us, that has been lost on so many of us. And some of the documents and things that you've sent, inshallah ta'ala, will be provided as well. So those that are watching this can actually go and click through some of those documents. May Allah bless you and reward you. If you have any last piece of advice for us, we'll take it inshallah. Well, brother, thank you very much. But thanks really goes to so many people whom I haven't mentioned, who have contributed even more than I did. One of them was the late Dr. Malik Badri, who was a famous Sudanese, who met him when he went to Sudan in 1959. He just passed away, I think, on the 8th of this month in Kuala Lumpur. And Malcolm also, after he made the hajj, he went to the American University. He went to Beirut to meet him in person. Professor, also Dr. Modestra Abdur-Rahim, met him in England. I made a lecture for him at his university. So many people really have contributed. But the thing I would like to say,
you see, the time I met Malcolm, I was a student. I don't think I have much vested in life as I would have been if I was a grown-up person. And this is what Malcolm had in his futuristic look of life. He betted on the young people. Because young people are always driven by ideas. But older people think twice, you know, about their family, about their jobs, what they will lose if they do this, if they do that. It is, of course, human. But some people, like Malcolm, can overcome these, you know, human tendencies. So we should always, you know, focus on the young people, you see. Because they are the ones who lead. They always look at things in a detached environment from material gains. And I think if we come down to it, especially what we have been experiencing now in America, I think now Malcolm is relevant more to all Americans today, more than his time. Not only in America, but when I was in Sudan, and that is the reason I made a number of documentaries in Sudan. Malcolm is as much wanted in Sudan and in Africa and elsewhere.
Because in Africa we are suffering from many of the things, adversities we are suffering here. You know, tribalism and factionalism and all of this is rampant there. Our leaders today in Africa are not like our leaders there in the 1960s, you see. We are so much fractured today. And fortunately now in Africa, young Africans are now bringing back the Pan-Africanism again, which was lost during all the past decades, you see. So I think the whole world is going through a metamorphosis that I think we should focus on the young people. And one thing especially about Muslims, I tell my people, today there are so many countries where men, women, and all the other factions and individuals carry the banner of Islam. But when it comes to deeds, unfortunately, they are far from the spirit of Islam. Under the name of Islam, you see Malcolm, he died. He was the richest person in America in terms of material things. He died without having a home, without having a mortgage, without having a life insurance, without having a car. In America, the poorest of the poor has these things maybe or at least some of these things, if not all.
Malcolm, he had the opportunity to get all of this and more, but he didn't. Because he said, unless his people will first get these things, he's not going to run after it. But in our countries, unfortunately, people, you know, who are raising the banner of Islam, they are the first people who grab the guns while the people are queuing, you know, queues of looking for a bed or for a shelter or for medicine, you know. So Malcolm is relevant to our countries as much as he's relevant in America, you see. The same thing in Asia. Look at the poor Muslims in Myanmar. Okay, they are being expelled from Myanmar. Why don't their neighboring Muslim countries take them rather than sending them to another country? Look at Ethiopia. When the Muslims were persecuted in Mecca, the Prophet asked them to go to Abyssinia because there is a just Christian king, the Najashi. So they went there and the unbelievers of Mecca, who were the nobles, they sent a delegation to Najashi so that they can bring back these Muslims to Mecca. And Najashi refused. He said no. In fact, when he asked them, each group to tell their case. So the Muslims told their case and they recited the Surah of Maryam. When the Najashi heard, it is said that he wept.
He said, I'm not sending you back. This is your home. So now I hear some of the Muslim countries are tearing these Muslims from Burma or Myanmar, you see, rather than accepting it. I really thank you for giving me the opportunity. And Alhamdulillah, you see, Malcolm's dream was after he met the Hajj, he said, I dream the day will come when plenaries of Muslims pilgrims will be going every year for pilgrimage to Mecca. At this time, in the only mosque in New York, we used to be about 15 or 20 people. When I went last year to Manhattan, more than 200 mosques. So, I mean, Alhamdulillah, it is the religion of Allah. Nobody can stop it. You see, it is the religion. Malcolm's funeral, Muslim funeral, is very interesting. If you go and read the New York Times and the other papers reporting on the funeral, of course, it was the fairest Muslim funeral that Americans have seen. Not only that, but before that, in America, they used to call us Mohammedans, not Muslims. And Professor Jib, the foremost Orientalist at Harvard, he wrote a book, the introduction, he says that Westerners, they call Muslims Mohammedans, but this is wrong. They don't worship Mohammed, they are Muslims.
But he calls his book Mohammedanism. So, there is so much really to learn, and I think Malcolm opened the eyes of not the Americans, the eyes of the entire world. What it means to be a Muslim, what it means to be a human. May Allah have mercy on him and may Allah protect you and preserve you. May Allah bless you and bless your family and Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala accept from you. Jazakallah Khayran, Dr. Ahmed, for this. It was such a pleasure. And I look forward to meeting you in person, inshallah, once the pandemic is gone. May Allah protect you and your family. And I ask everyone that's watching or listening to please make dua for Dr. Ahmed and his family. And for all of those pioneers, those that some are not mentioned, and even those that are mentioned are not given their full right, may Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala reward them all fully. Allahumma ameen. Jazakallah Khayran. Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. Waalaikumussalam warahmatullahi wa barakatuh. And all my thanks and prayers for your family, for the people of your group, and your congregation. And alhamdulillah what you are doing, we pray to Allah, ijazikum khayran jaza'a fi dunya wal akhirah inshallah. Thank you very much, brother. Alhamdulillah. Sorry for keeping you for so long, by the way. It's a pleasure. Alhamdulillah. We've learned so much from you. I feel bad for keeping you so long. So may Allah reward you. And inshallah we'll be in touch, Dr. Ahmed. Jazakallah khayran. You always remember the last words of Malcolm. Where, assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.
May peace be upon you.
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