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S3 E9: Overcoming Pørnography | Doubletake
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Pørnography. It’s a word that’s taboo to say out loud in many of our communities, yet it’s responsible for psychological, spiritual, and social harms on a scale that is almost impossible to comprehend. While it is common knowledge that watching pornography is forbidden in Islam, its addictive nature makes it difficult to overcome.
What are the harms of watching this content? What are the underlying issues that cause people to turn to it, and why do they have a hard time turning away? What can we do to stop this habit before it becomes an addiction?
Join host Mohamad Zaoud for a conversation with Dr. Omar Husain, Head of Instruction at Yaqeen Institute and Assistant Professor at Seattle University in the Clinical Mental Health Program.
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This transcript was auto-generated using AI and may contain misspellings. As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah. Welcome to a new episode of Double Take, a podcast by Yaqeen Institute about the questions and ideas around Islam and Muslims that give us pause. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. If you like what you hear or want to share some feedback with the team, you can let us know directly using the link in the show notes. Our guest today, Dr. Omar Hussain graduated from Al-Azhar University with a degree in Islamic studies and Arabic. His work as an imam led him to study in counseling. He's a licensed professional counselor associate, a licensed chemical dependency counselor, and he completed his PhD in counselor education and supervision at the University of Texas. He is currently an assistant professor at Seattle University in the clinical mental health program. Enjoy the episode. Dr. Omar, as-salamu alaykum and welcome to Double Take. Wa'alaikum as-salam.
Sheikh, there are two conversations these days that I don't look forward to. One of them is crypto as a failed crypto investor. And the other conversation is the one we're about to have. And I'm so glad, honestly, that you're on the show. Finally, alhamdulillah, it took us only a couple of seasons to get you on, but hopefully you'll be a regular. But for the first topic that you're on the show, pornography is a massive one. I know it's an issue that afflicts many people in our community, but it's often brushed under the rug. And your doctoral dissertation explored how this issue affects Muslims. My question to you is why, of all topics, of all topics that are brushed under the rug, why did you choose pornography? Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I often joke, although it's not really a joke, totally, that when my parents asked me what my topic was for my dissertation, I never could tell them. I'd just be like, it's something to do with addictions. The first time they heard of the topic was at my defense, but at that point they didn't care anymore because they're like, alhamdulillah, he passed, so it doesn't matter. But the reason I chose it, I could have played it safe and gone with another topic, like around discrimination against Muslims or something like that, which is important. But in my work in the community, I saw that this topic kept coming up over and over again, and it didn't seem to discriminate against anyone. It would be 13-year-olds, it would be married professionals, it would be men, it would be women. And there really seemed to be no patterns necessarily that it was just like, okay, this is just a one-off thing, and it was really recurring.
And so I decided that what is something I can do to, inshaAllah, bring some benefit and explore that we absolutely need to, and what am I seeing that is having these just devastating consequences on people, and that's why I selected this topic. JazakAllah khair. Look, you've taken a big burden off many other people, because not only did you cover this topic, but you really dove deep into it. And in this conversation, inshaAllah, we're going to have an open, a frank conversation about what the issue with pornography is, from your experience Islamically, you studied in Al-Azhar, and also from your secular studies. So we're going to pick your brain as to why pornography is such a big deal, and why it's so hard to overcome. We're also going to ask you, based on your research, your strategies to kind of overcome it. You speak a lot about it not discriminating against anyone in particular. You said men and women watch pornography. You say young people watch pornography, adults watch pornography, married people watch pornography. And you also say that practicing and non-practicing people watch pornography. Were there any instances in your life that kind of instigated that pursuit to cover this topic? Was there one or two instances where you felt like, oh my God, I need to cover this? Well, I think there's one story I think that will sum quite a bit up. There was, so I won't mention obviously the community, but there was a young brother, successful in his profession, family man, kind of a role model to the younger Muslims
in the community, active in the masjid, who struggled with this problem for years. And he came to me one time after he had overcome this. It had been years since then. But just speaking about the point that he had gotten to, and I could never forget this, that he told me that he had actually plotted his own suicide because of the guilt that he felt from watching. He told me in the town that I live in, there's this highway and I had it all figured out. And he went to a restaurant before he was going to do this. It's like a movie scene. It really is. And as he was sitting there, just kind of by himself having a coffee or whatever, he just started struck up a conversation with a total random stranger and he told him what he was going to do. And that stranger, you know, looks at him and he says, I think you're the most selfish person I've ever met. Like you have a family, you have a community, and you're just going to just end your life. Like what a, you probably use some other words that I don't want to repeat, but like what a way to just like cop out, right? To just kind of weasel out of responsibility. Alhamdulillah, that, I mean, we never know where guidance comes from. That had such a profound impact on him that he did not pursue what he was going to do. And he started seeking help for his addiction. And after, you know, years of work and practice and working at it, Alhamdulillah, he has overcome that. And he tells me, of course, to share that story because of how many people, I mean, how many people, I know people get to a low with this, but to get to the ultimate low
where you want to end your life, I don't know what's more serious than that. And what was particularly impactful was he was involved in the community and he kind of started disappearing from the community. And it's so difficult because when you serve in the position as an imam or as a religious director, they, you know, community members tell you things they don't tell anyone else. And so I understood why now he had kind of disappeared from the community. And it would feel very, it was very difficult for me to hear people say like, oh, you know, where is so and so? You know, he just kind of disappeared. Right? He just kind of stopped showing up. You know, they think like you're just what happened, you were doing so much good. But that's how much he got involved in this vicious cycle that he just kind of backed out of everything and was on the verge of ending his life. But Alhamdulillah, he, you know, has stuck with it. And over a period of years and continuing to work on it, he has been able to kind of move forward with his life and now really be a source of support and inspiration for other Muslims facing. So I think that kind of wraps up how far and how low someone can get involved in this. Yeah, unlike many other sins, or many other actions, this one is done in kind of the corner of your room by yourself. With other addictions, some of them, the results are seen in public, whereas this, it can, I guess, build over time without anyone really realizing it around you. I was going to ask you to help me understand what's wrong with pornography. I know that's a very simple question. But in a secular society, I personally hear various arguments.
I hear, okay, it's an addiction, and we'll get to that. And I'd love your take on that. But in other circles, they say it's healthy, it's good for you, it helps inspire ideas for your even marital relationships. So help me understand what is the Islamic stance regarding pornography, and then the secular stance, the proper research on is pornography good or bad? I know it's a simple question, but I just want to kind of turn a corner on that. So let's start Islamically. What is the problem with pornography? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I think we can kind of actually combine those answers together, because there's wisdom in what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala tells us to follow. Of course, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala said, do not come close to committing zina. We know, famous hadith with the Prophet ﷺ said that the eyes commit zina and the hands commit zina, and the private parts ultimately confirm. So there's not really a debate as to Islamically, what is the ruling on pornography, right? When we are told to do ghadl al basr, to lower our gaze from looking at parts that are forbidden from the opposite gender, then when someone is exposing everything, it's pretty clear. So I don't think you can even make up an argument as to what the Islamic stance is. What I would encourage, now it's very interesting you asked about the Islamic and secular, because I believe that I could make an argument, I mean, the Islamic argument is easy. I think there's a very strong secular argument against pornography, and a lot of the things I'm looking at, when I'm looking at research, there's no religious basis behind it, right? It's secular based, but they're showing so much in terms of the negative consequences
of pornography. Now let's get to the research in a second, but I'll just pose a question to the audience. Someone gets married, let's say average age, average Muslim, maybe 25, okay? If you're exposed to pornography, and you start watching when you are 11 or 12, which is about the average age of exposure, which is getting younger and probably is even younger now, for 14 years, you are consuming pornography. What is pornography showing us? This is sort of a feminist argument, but it's a valid argument. It is degrading women because of the acts and the things that you're going to witness as you're watching. So if you've been watching this for 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 years now, and you go into getting married, as a young man, what are your expectations going to be on what intimacy is with your wife? You're going to think that you just press a button and you're marrying a machine basically that's just there to fulfill your carnal desires. You're getting used to when you're bored of something, you just flip the screen, right? Or you just change the video and another face comes on. And pornography is fantasy, right? The women don't actually, they don't act like that or do those things in real life, but it's portrayed like it is. So if you're exposed to that for 14 or 15 years, what do we think the consequences are going to be? Why do we need a long elaborate research study to tell us that? I've looked at research in couples who are married and I wish I could read some of the quotes about, basically they feel like they're being, that their partner is being unfaithful
to them by them watching. And why would it really be any different? Like what's different between that and going and actually seeing somebody, right? This illusion that, well, it's behind the camera, that's the fantasy part. Most of the research shows a very negative consequences of consuming pornography. There are some, as you had mentioned, you know, they try to speak to the benefits, but just because somebody says something or has some research out there doesn't mean it's the dominant opinion or what's going to be, you know, what manifests itself the majority of the time. We know that people that view pornography, there's a lot of guilt and shame involved and it kind of leads into the cycle where they just, you know, they just keep, they don't know how to get out of it. And some of the research I did looking specifically at religious commitment and depression and anxiety, what I found was it didn't matter how religious one was. They were still subject, you know, to use of pornography. So you know, that's kind of the, it goes back to the aspect of it's powerful because it's appealing to something which is naturally in us. Now in Islam we have boundaries. Allah didn't say like live celibate for your entire life, but he gave us boundaries. But when you cross those boundaries, then you know, you get into all kinds of issues. So I think there's, it's a very easy argument to make from a secular perspective as well for a variety of those reasons. And just before I move on Sheikh, is it fair to say that the same is true for women as well? Is this as prevalent in female circles as it is in male circles or how does that kind of eventuate? So it is more prevalent in men.
However, we've noticed over the last five to 10 years that women are increasingly using it. It is not unheard of for women to be using or watching pornography. As a matter of fact, the pornography industry has started marketing towards women and they do that by maybe making, you know, like adding a little more story to whatever films or whatever they're producing to make it appeal more to what maybe women would be interested in. But there's no question that to just think that it's only prevalent as men, yes, it's dominant in men, but to just think that it's not prevalent as women is, or not prevalent as women would, is just, research doesn't back that up and it's increasing amongst women as well. So Sheikh, look, religiously, I understand, These are very, very unequivocal. How about putting halal and haram aside, spiritually, what does it do to my heart if I'm exposed to this over 5, 10, 15 years? What is it doing to my spirituality, my connection with Allah, my deeds beyond the halal and haram? What's it doing to my heart? Well, if you think about this, when you constantly expose yourself to these images, you're not going to be able to get them out of your head for a while. And when you're excessively consuming these images, imagine you're going to be in Sajdah and you're going to have these vile images coming in your mind. Imagine you're going to be making dua and you're going to have these images coming into your mind. That is, and again, it kind of, it's that cycle which starts, then you start feeling terrible, oh my God, I have these images in my mind and I'm trying to make dua, right?
So it distracts you from being spiritually connected. And I would even add to that in terms of relationships, because really when we are in a relationship with our spouse, for example, and we are fulfilling their rights, then we are obeying Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. But now, again, you're in intimacy now and you are having images in your mind or thoughts in your mind about things which, and you're feeling like, what is this? That's not the person I'm married to, that was someone on a screen. So we can see how with those images constantly coming in our mind, it's hard to unsee some of those things. And we're going to be seeing those in our most intimate acts with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, right? Those acts of worship, the 27th night of Ramadan, right? We're going to be trying to connect and our heart will be disconnected because it's going to be focused on these things that we've seen. So those are very, very severe consequences, right? Which may be different from other sins, which may be at the time of the sin, you know, you commit, of course, I'm not minimizing any sin, but you commit it, but it's kind of for that one area, right? And then you can maybe move on or whatever. But with this, it's kind of always lurking around. And that's really what's the great problem with it. And yeah, I mean, you're right in the sense that it compounds over time. It's not like something that you just switch off and then move on. It remains with you. So having said that, psychologically, I understand it affects marriages. But what are the other effects of pornography? Like psychologically, when you talk about it and you hear about pornography, you hear that it's an addiction or it can be an addiction. What does that even mean? Yeah.
So let's differentiate a little between addiction and bad habits. What's very interesting is when you look at the brain scans of people who watch pornography, it looks very similar to those who do other drugs like cocaine. It's just that the euphoria is not by putting something in your mouth, but you still have the same stimulation. Now what exactly is an addiction? Very basically speaking, if it's impacting a major area in your life, then that might be an addiction. Of course, we have to do an intake and figure everything out. is important to distinguish between an addiction and bad habits. Okay. If you're watching and again, I'm not minimizing, but if you're watching pornography for an hour a week, you're not addicted to pornography and inshallah there are things that can be done to help you overcome that. But if you are watching seven days a week and you are showing up to work late because you're up all night or you lose interest in your spouse because you're more interested in the screen, right? Or you're isolating yourself and you left exercise and other habits you used to do. Something major is happening in your life, then that would be very, could very much be considered an addiction. So I think it's important for us to understand the difference between those two. What we find is that people who are more religiously inclined tend to say everything is an addiction. And I think that kind of cites us out because when we think of addiction, it's like, Oh my God, this is something which is so it's a mountain to overcome, but that's not always the case. I think it's important for the audience to know that. And so what's the threshold in your mind? What's the threshold between it being a manageable bad habit and a very difficult addiction to overcome? So, you know, there's debate on that in terms of the research in terms of like, is it past a certain amount
of hours? I would again, just go back to, is it impacting a major part of your life? So if you are unable to pray Fajr, for example, I would say that that's impacting a major part of your life. If you are, for example, one research study I read, there was a student who was at a top notch university and, you know, scholarship and everything. And he stopped going to class because he would be up late and he basically lost his scholarship and got kicked out of the school. That's a major impact in life. So look at if it's impacting something and it's happening constantly. And if that means also, you know, not being able to pray or just always feeling guilty or isolating or depressed with yourself because of watching that all of that, I think is a sign that you may not be able to get out of it yourself. I think it's difficult and that's why we need to have these conversations more, but it's often difficult to get out of it just by yourself. I think that's where help is needed and that's where the community needs to step up and just stop acting like, well, we don't do that. Fair enough. I'm going to, you know, I'm just, I'm sorry that it's become such a somber conversation, such a serious one. Inshallah next episode, we'll talk about something a lot more positive. I wanted to bring up the topic of soft pornography. Let's just say, you know, a young guy and girl have not been led down the path of pornography and they haven't gone down the line of five or 10 years and being exposed to it at an early age. But nowadays, a simple Muslim couple get married and they spend their evenings watching Netflix, a couple of documentaries,
maybe a series or two. And I'm one of those Muslims, frankly, and I do watch Netflix. I watched When They See Us with Yusuf Salam. I watched a few documentaries and I attempted to watch something like Game of Thrones, frankly, and I'm being very open with you. We didn't get through the first episode, my wife and I, because of how graphic it was. We switched gears to other kind of simpler, less graphic series. And even those have, if not explicit images, more subtle kind of insinuations and images, and they lead us to thinking certain things. So how, in your research, serious is this soft pornography that exists on our TV screens and even in music? And does it lead to something worse? And is it just as bad? Yeah. What we find, this isn't true every single time, right? But what is not uncommon is that those who start with, let's call it soft pornography or something lighter, quote unquote, after a while, your body, just like a drug, starts to build tolerance. This is why a drug dealer at the schoolyard will give you the first hit for free. They don't charge for that. Why are they doing that? Because they want you to get a little taste and then come back for more, right? And then as you start to take it, even that's not enough. So then what do you do? Then you go steal money out of your dad's wallet and you go,
right? What is not uncommon is that when we start with softer things, again, quote unquote, you build tolerance. And over a period of time, what you are watching is not satisfying anymore. So maybe you started watching, I don't know, but let's just say like network TV or something where you don't really have nudity, but you have, you know, scant scantily clad individuals. Then you're like, well, I want to see more. Right. Then you, I mean, we have access to so many things. I mean, if you go on Netflix or Hulu or any of these streaming services, now you're seeing more right now that some time goes by like, yeah, but you know, they still not showing everything. So I need more. So now you start going to the hardcore stuff where you see everything, but then what happens? Then you're like, even that's not enough now. So now you start watching other genres. If we can even use that word, I don't know what other word we can use. And a lot of people in their recovery, they'll step back like, I can't believe I was watching this and this, like it would have made me vomit if you had asked me before I started this whole journey. Right. So it, I think that is very real because it stops becoming, it doesn't satisfy you. So you keep getting set to something, you know, nastier, nastier, harder and harder. And many will actually, now the watching won't even be enough. Again, I'm not saying this is every single time, but this is a reality that exists now. It's like, well, now I need to go and hook up with someone. Right. It absolutely can get to that. And that's not, is it a serious top of the funnel? Like, are you telling me stop watching series? Like I know as a religious person,
you'd probably say that. And I accept that from you. But it's part and parcel in, in modern secular life, living in a Western society, you just watch Netflix. Are you saying we should think twice because it's a serious top of the funnel to, you know, pornography? I think in this day and age, there is enough to keep us entertained where we don't have to engage in everything that we think we do. Okay. Let me give you an example, not with pornography. So I used to really, again, you know, sometimes people think, oh, you know, the Sheikh, they just read a Quran all day. Yeah. Inshallah. But that's, it's not the reality. Okay. I used to really enjoy stand up comedy. Okay. Particularly intelligent stand up comedy. So not just like, just people making like, just for the sake of laughing, but I really, you know, like when it's sending a message, like, I love that. It's very powerful to me. But as I started to, you know, just understand more and reading about, you know, how the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, you know, how he used to joke, but he wouldn't tell lies and he was never foul and things like that. I just, I can't do it anymore. And that is a norm in most stand up comedy. Right. But I know that that it just, it, you know, I've become desensitized to it. Now you can, there are other things you can watch absolutely and be entertained with, but you know, it's just a balance that we have to have. I'm certainly not going to say don't watch anything. But I would also say that, you know, the rules of lowering your gaze apply at all times. So if you're watching something and something not appropriate comes on the screen, you don't like get a pass because
the screen. Right. So, you know, if you have that mentality, I think it's easier to navigate. But I do think there are certain things like you mentioned, like Game of Thrones. I just don't know how we could want to have any desire to watch something like that. But I think there are many alternatives in this day and age. I don't think that we're just limited like, oh, just we have to live in a box and there's nothing to do. And then we can navigate to the best of our ability and some of those other things. So there are other kind of serious questions I have. I'm going to pause on those and move to kind of from your research, how to solve some of these issues. And then we'll come back to some of the tougher questions if we have time. I want to ask about overcoming pornography. So here's a scenario. You were mentioning that, you know, a typical teenager is exposed to pornography. They're 11 or 12. Their parents are practicing, they're praying, they attend Jumaa, they read Quran, but they're exposed to it. And then they start watching it. And over 10 years, they go deeper and deeper into it. It becomes a habit from once every few months to once a week to whatever. And they've been exposed to it consistently for say 10 years. They get married at 25. This is male or female. And let's just say it's not an addiction yet. Let's just say that because an addiction has its own kind of path. But what if it's a bad habit that's affecting their life? What do they do? Like what do you even start? And they've tried, they've gone cold turkey in Ramadan. They've gone a couple of months without doing it. But then somehow, because it's been brewing
over 10 years, they find their way back to it. What do they do? So if it's a case where let's say it's a couple hours a week, for example, right, so not at like the level of an addiction. One technique that can be successful is systemic desensitization, which I just take from the Hadith of the Prophet ﷺ where he said, follow a sin with a hasana, follow a sin with a good deed and it wipes it away. And it doesn't make sense when you look initially like I just committed a sin. What do you mean do a good deed after that? The Shaytan doesn't want you to do that good deed. He wants you to sit there and feel guilty about it and prolong that process, right? That's exactly the point. So what I will tell some to do who maybe are in sort of a bad habit, but not something that's totally affecting them is practice this habit of self or of practice this habit where basically self-penalty. So what that means is you say if I watch 30 minutes of pornography, I'm going to let's say donate $50 to a charity. Okay. Now someone who's not at the point where their brain is just engrossed in this, when they do that, at some point you're gonna be like, I'm gonna go broke if I keep doing this. Okay. So you're teaching your brain to unlearn those behaviors. Now someone I know someone's gonna say, but I don't have $50, right? I don't have that money. Okay, then fast. So for every, you know, you say, if I watch two hours this week, I'm going to fast next Monday. Now, if you put these two strategies into practice, either
you're going to go broke or you're going to starve. Okay. So one of them, inshallah, for someone who's not at a level of full blown addiction, it will help them to curb these habits and slowly eliminate them. And people have found success by using this technique. The other thing, which I think we're not there yet as a community, but I hope we can get there is support groups. You see when someone doesn't have an addiction, but has a bad habit, when you're in a support group, let's say weekly, that reminder is enough to keep you going from week to week. Support groups are the norm in drug addiction. People who haven't, they haven't drank for 30 years, they're still going to a group. So this is something I've actually tried this. Go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say, how do you marry that with the whole concept of hiding your sins? You know, Islamically, we hide our sins. If Allah has covered your sin, why would you make it public? That's kind of an extra barrier to then, you know, bring this up with a bunch of strangers. I hear that. I hear that a lot, but I'm not buying it because number one, you're trying to, you've shown that you're having difficulty to overcome this and you keep, and you're constantly involved in it. So what you're doing isn't working. And secondly, you're making an effort to overcome it. And nobody is saying you have to go into every single detail of what you're watching and what, nobody is saying that. It's just, it's just a group to show that, you know what, I'm not the only one. What are some things you're doing that have worked for you? So this is a very positive thing. I just don't, I never bought that argument from people that I'm exposing my sin. Yes, Alhamdulillah, Allah has kept you from being exposed to the world. But if you're not overcoming
it, I mean, you want to just let this pattern keep going for the next decade? Or do you want to do something that's going to help? Inshallah. If someone had a addiction to alcohol and they went through a program, we would say, oh, wow, mashallah, they're going and getting treatment. We don't say that they're exposing their sin. What you're saying is that I have a problem and I need help and I can't overcome it. When someone comes to me in the office in the masjid, that's not, they're not exposing their sin. They're saying, how do I get over this? So I think that question needs to sort of be reframed. Look, right now, I would say the only times you ever hear about pornography in our community is maybe when you're younger, a couple of youth groups and the sheikh would tell you, you know, lower your gaze. Maybe once a year you hear a khutbah, lower your gaze. There might be a YouTube video here and there. But there's nothing systematic. Just like there is in other areas of our religion. You know, there's programs to teach us how to pray. There's programs to improve marriages. There is no program, as far as I know, that really tackles pornography head on. So what do you feel is missing in our conversations, in our discourse as a community when it comes to pornography? Well, there are individuals, Muslim counselors, who are helping individuals. So we definitely want to mention that. You said once a year you did a khutbah. I think that's quite a bit. I don't even know. I don't even know that. Broadly, lower thy gaze, you know, as you come into Islam. That's about it. Sure, sure. But you know, what is not happening? I'll tell you, going back to the support group, I tried to start that in my community. And we kept running into this issue of, well,
how are people going to get there? And then somebody else is going to know I'm in, like, it was just all these logistical things and it never, never came to fruition. Right? We'll get there, inshallah. I even tried one online and one person signed up. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. I've had more individual cases than this. So we're still, it's, look, it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing. Nobody wants to say that they have this issue. But as a community, I think it goes back to just, just being supportive of the fact that, you know, this is not some, this is sort of a natural fitrah, fitri type thing we have in us, the desire. Now, you know, we have desires, but it's been distorted and twisted and taken advantage of with this. So why can't a community out there step up and say, we're going to be the community that's going to have, that's going to start with a support group. Right? And think about the logistics, of course, but I don't think that that conversation is happening at all. But you'll see this in other faiths, they have their alcohol support group or something like that. We don't have it for anything. So it's such a simple first step, but no one seems to be willing to step up to that. Okay. You mentioned one of the tactics to overcome this is to link it with a good deed. So you know, if you're doing it once a week or once a month, then you link that and commit to, for argument's sake, fasting or giving charity. Are there any other proven tactics that work for someone who's genuinely just trying to overcome this bad habit? You know, that would be the first thing I would advise someone to try. The second thing is just what's called, there's a technique called urge surfing. Okay. So what we find is that there's going to be this craving and a very intense moment when we want to watch,
right? Or when we want to have a drink or we want to smoke or something. So if you can overcome that, that urge, like that moment, then you kind of ride out that wave and you're going to be okay. So I've worked with clients who I told them, start very deep breathing. Right? So you really suck in the air and push it out like really aggressively, like you're almost forcing the urge out of yourself. And that really can help sort of shift your focus to not focusing on it. And then you'll find it's just a little while and then you're not going to want it. It's not like the urges last for three hours, right? It's very short. So I've had them do deep, really deep, aggressive breathing. That's been, that's helped some clients. Another is to. As soon as you feel that urge kick in, just do some very aggressive physical activity, you know, like just drop and do like 10 pushups or something. Okay. Or 15 pushups or something. Do a bunch of crunches. Like just do something where you just are expending a ton of energy because then that's also going to sort of release that, that urge. And if you can get through that window, then you're going to be okay. Also, you know, look for what we call triggers. You're probably watching it. If you're watching, let's say once a week for an hour. Is it always on Friday in your room at the same time? Okay. If that's the case, then we can make some modifications so that we're not, we don't put ourself in that environment. So how about we go out with our friends on that Friday instead of being alone in our room on Friday? Right. How about we, you know, put the laptop somewhere else on Friday? Right. There's moving things around a little bit can really make a big difference because, again,
you're not at a point where you're just totally full blown and into the addiction. Also, like you got to actually want to. If you don't really want to leave it, then there's not really anything you can do. And finally, I would say the environment you're in is going to make all the difference as well. Right. So what are you listening to? Who are you hanging out with? What are you watching? If I told a brother, I'll put the most beautiful woman in the world in front of you. And then I'm going to stand behind you with like a sledgehammer. You're not going to be thinking about that. What are you going to be thinking about me and the sledgehammer? Because your mind isn't focused on that. So the environment we put ourselves in, if you're around people that are talking about that all the time or other things, then that's going to directly affect the amount of desires and urges that you're going to have. Would it also make sense to like go cold turkey on things that lead to pornography? So if it's your Instagram account, you're scrolling one thing leads to another or YouTube or whatever, or even Netflix. Like does it, it would go as far as like your phone, you know, if you've just got your phone and you're by yourself in your room. So would it make sense to go cold turkey? Do those strategies work? Or do people just find ways, other ways to kind of find their way to it? Yeah. Cold turkey can be effective for some individuals. I don't want to say that it's not going to, that it's not effective. It can be. Generally with clients I've had, I tend to use more of a sort of systemically kind of narrowing down the use. Because look, you're not going to stop using your phone for the rest of your life, right? You're not going to never go on the computer for the rest of your life. So we need to learn responsible, healthy technology use. So that's what I would recommend.
So I've worked, when I've worked with others, yes, initially there's a period where you need to kind of cut everything off, right? But that's not a long term solution. So we have to get you back to being able to use and use in a responsible fashion. So, okay, now you can watch for 20 minutes a day. Now we'll build this up slowly and slowly while we're working on other things to kind of get you to a point where you don't have those desires or cravings to watch anymore. So I would say more advocating for sort of healthy and responsible use rather than just, you know, that we're just never going to use this ever and that's going to go away. But cold turkey might work for some, but if you've tried it five times and it's not working for you, then maybe it's time for a different strategy. Okay. And then I guess that's all if it's just a bad habit. And it's something that you can manage yourself, I guess. What if it's an addiction? Like what if I'm doing it and it's affecting my life in big ways? What if it's affecting my relationship with my spouse? Or if it's affecting my Fajr prayer or my relationship with Allah, or if it's really making me kind of get into a bubble, distance myself from relatives and friends. What if it's genuinely an addiction? Where do I even start there? I think if you genuinely have an addiction, it's going to be difficult to overcome it yourself. You're going to need to get some sort of professional, spiritual, and probably both. A blend of both. You're going to need to get some help. Now, the number one barrier I see is the embarrassment. Just before I get back to that point, one of the most beautiful things I see is when there is like a young person who has a problem with pornography and they come to their intake with their family.
That shows me support. That shows me that inshallah, they have a much greater chance of overcoming this because their family is right there to support them. It's a very beautiful thing for me to see. So for any family members that are out there, if you want to help those who are struggling in your family, there's nothing better than you showing support. Long-term sobriety, research shows us, one of the key factors is support. And many times Muslims don't feel like they have any support at all. So I would urge family members just, you know, this isn't an evil person. I mean, somebody was accidentally exposed or something. This isn't 30 years ago. This is the reality of the times we are living in. I mean, it's not their fault that they've done that, right? So a compassionate sort of support, I think, is very important for family members. It's hard to go by it, go at it by yourself. If your spouse has caught you, I understand there's going to be anger, there's going to be feelings of betrayal. But if you ultimately want to improve it, constantly, you know, being down on them is probably not going to be something for you to be successful. So I would say if it can't be, just find someone you feel you can trust to help you and support you and get the help that you need. Maybe that's a friend, maybe that's a teacher, maybe that's the imam, but someone that you feel you can go to and then can kind of help facilitate getting more professional help. Because if you've been watching this for 10 years, you're not going to overcome it in a week, right? There's going to be a process that needs to happen. But I would just say to that individual struggling, who's maybe saying, I don't have anyone to talk to, I'm sure there's someone to talk to, how long are you going to let it go on?
Like, it's already caused you this much distress to begin with. When someone comes to me and they're breaking down, sometimes I'll congratulate them and they look all confused. And I said, it's clear that you clearly know what's right and what's wrong. And I see a burning desire to try to overcome this. I'm not going to sit here and tell you what a terrible person you are. It's actually very commendable that you're here. So find someone that you can be open with, who can support you. There's got to be someone. Otherwise, you're just going to... I think it's hard to go at it by yourself when you're in the addiction phase. Fair enough. We normally wrap up these conversations with a question from my nine-year-old niece. What I'm hearing from you is that pornography kind of just seeps into your life when you're young. So she's probably not going to ask you a question out of the blue about pornography. So I'm going to flip the question on its head and ask you, when would you talk to a nine-year-old or a child about pornography? And what would you say? I think this might be the most important question of all, because it leads to the ultimate way that we can minimize the impact of pornography, and that is early prevention. A lot of the things we were discussing or that are happening in the communities, it's after this time, right? There's no better way to avoid this issue than to start early with kids. Starting out in an age-appropriate way. So for example, my two-year-old has recently started telling me to leave when he's using the restroom. That's building up something. He doesn't want you to be there while you're watching.
So now when he goes in the room and his eight-month-old sister, her diaper is being changed, we say, well, just like you didn't want anyone to look at you, we don't want you to be here and look when the diaper is being changed. Doesn't always work, but they're two. But it's sending a message of like, so that's basically it's age-appropriate of like, okay, this is like shame, shame. I've heard some, one of my family members says that to her daughter, like, oh, this is shame, shame. Just kind of, that's age-appropriate, but introducing the topic of what sort of we cover and what are private parts. When you're getting up to like nine and 10, you know, there's a lot more understanding than we think. And if they're going to be online, first of all, don't give your kid a smartphone when they're eight for crying out loud. That should be child abuse. I mean, there's no reason that an eight-year-old needs to have a smartphone. Now, some parents say, but all the other kids have a smartphone. You know, work on it in groups. So you and the group that they're commuting to school with speak to the parents. There's not going to be any phones in the car, right? Work in groups to make it a little bit easier and less challenging. But, you know, the conversation has to happen early. We are not at a luxury of not speaking about this topic, just keeping it age-appropriate. So for a nine-year-old, you know, there's certain things that Allah told us to cover that we don't show to others. So if you are doing your homework or something and something comes up that you know you shouldn't be watching, then click out of it or turn the computer off and come and tell us. And that's an opportunity to talk to them. But if they feel scared to death to talk to you about it, right, a lot of times it goes back to the relationship that's there with whether it's our nieces, nephews, kids, whatever.
So, you know, when you see something like that, then tell us about it. And then that's a conversation to have in an age-appropriate way. But to just ignore it, I think, is a disservice and is not a winning strategy long-term. All right, Sheikh, we could talk clearly for a very long time about this. It's your specialty. And inshallah, next time we'll cover off a much lighter topic. I don't know, the feck of holiday travel or something. So we're going to switch gears to our standard rapid fire questions and hopefully lighten up the mood. I'm going to ask you a set of questions. You're going to have five seconds to answer them, inshallah. So the first one, I mean, you studied in Al-Azhar, so I'm assuming I've got the answer to this. But who is your favorite reciter of the Quran? Any classical Egyptian reciters, that was an easy question. Fine. What's the last book that you were reading? So there was a, I want to go non-academic book because that's, I think, less dull. But it was called, it was Glow Kids, which was about technology and its effect on kids. So that was a very interesting read. Okay, and your dream breakfast. And you can't tell me, you know, Egyptian, an Egyptian spread, something different, something unique. No, I'm going to switch it up and say anything Turkish. Any Turkish breakfast, I am delighted. I mean, you get your meats, you got anything you want, the flavors. I'm getting excited and hungry just thinking about it. Especially the cream and honey. Oh, yes, yes.
If you could have dinner with anyone who is alive, who would it be? Anyone who's alive. This is going to be a boring answer for most people, but Irving Yalong, who is the founder of one of the psychotherapy techniques that I like to use, I would ask him specifically, why do you, why didn't you incorporate religious belief into this? Because it's a technique which is not very congruent with religion. But I think it very much is. So I would love to have that conversation with him. Nice one. Wasn't so boring. When I say embarrassing message story, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? So I'm not trying to toot my own horn. Okay. I just credit this to good parents. I wasn't the kid who would just go nuts in the masjid, like doing Ramadan or anything like that. But I will say that while I was there, next to my dad praying, the other kids would, I don't know if this is embarrassing, but maybe it is. They would run during Ramadan, they would run down to play video games at the arcade and they would be in there playing. And then somebody would actually then come and be like, they're on six rakah and rush back in to the masjid. So, you know, we'll let it go. They were young, but that was, I thought that was pretty hilarious. Pretty smart. Well, at least you didn't, you know, disturb the musallim. That's a pretty good strategy. Well intentioned. What's the most common complaint that people give you when you talk about pornography during your khutbas? I think, so, because I, you know, I'm kind of, I have sort of a background in the religious side and the clinical side.
I think that gives me a little bit of a pass that I haven't really found a lot of negativity when I have addressed this topic. And I think that's just because there's sort of a trust that's been established. I would say, alhamdulillah, people have been more receptive and I can't really think of anyone, I can't really think of many. I mean, I'm sure there have been, but none come to mind. Just because of that position that I'm able to convey the message in. Okay. You're pretty much jam-packed, that's another Aussie idiom, with your religious and professional responsibilities. You used to watch stand-up comedy to relax. What do you do to relax now? I work out. I'm always trying different workouts. I'm also obsessed with finding healthy food that tastes good. I know you probably just mumbled under your breath, good luck with that one, but I will keep trying. So whether it's protein chips or all kinds of stuff, I buy all this stuff, people look at me. Vegan stuff, I'm just trying all that. So that is exciting to me to try to find. I've got one that you probably already know, but it's making a comeback. It's making a comeback. And that is sesame tahina with carob molasses and just mix it. I think in Egypt they do the sugar cane molasses, but if you get carob molasses, it actually almost tastes like Nutella. If you block your nose and close your eyes. Okay. That's a strong claim. It is. It's a good one. Final one. Sheikh, if you had unlimited resources and could spend it on anything for the Muslim community, what would it be? Quality leadership in the masajid.
Let me specify that before I get in trouble. Basically, investing in people rather than in structures or parking lots. I would love to see a mental health counselor on staff. I would love to see a female religious director who can handle the unique issues that women in the community have. A youth director should pretty much be standard. I would love to see that thinking rather than just like it needs to be a one-man show and let's fundraise because we have this gorgeous building here. Well, if no one is in that building in ten years, it's not going to make any difference. So I would just invest and invest on people. It's interesting. They'll have a church of 100 congregants and they have like 15 people on staff. And you have a masjid with 4,000 and you have like 1 person on staff. So I would just have our centers invest in people. JazakAllah khair. Dr. Omar, it was a pleasure. And inshallah, next episode with you, we'll talk about something much lighter. Inshallah. JazakAllah khair. Barakallah fik. Al-Fatiha.
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