Dogma Disrupted
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Living with Same-Sex Attraction as a Muslim
Are sexual desires an essential part of who we are? No matter how the world shifts, Islam is clear about not allowing our desires to define us. So what then about feeling same sex attraction? Doesn't that automatically mean that someone is gay?
Imam Tom Facchine invites Waheed Jensen to discuss his experiences living with same sex attraction while rejecting current narratives and labels, and how we can support individuals in our communities that struggle with these feelings.
0:00 - Introduction
3:05 - Are sexual desires an essential part of who we are?
14:36 - Comparing on homosexual actions to other sins
29:19 - Attraction is broader than sexual activity
31:56 - Childhood experiences, shame, and same-sex attraction
41:10 - The hypersensitivity of people with SSA
46:30 - Same-sex attraction and mental health
56:50 - Can sexual urges change?
1:08:18 - What does true support for Muslims with SSA look like?
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Transcript
This transcript was auto-generated using AI and may contain misspellings. Assalamualaikum and welcome back to Dogma Disrupted. Islam is completely clear that same-sex relationships and same-sex intercourse is completely forbidden. And Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala condemns such relationships and such behavior in the strongest of terms. However, what should someone do if they happen to experience same-sex attraction? Today we're going to explore that on Dogma Disrupted. We have someone who has agreed to come on to the show to show other people that just because you experience attraction to the same-sex or just because you experience these sorts of desires does not doom you to identify with these desires or it does not doom you to a certain lifestyle. That you have the ability to fight against it and to fight back and to submit to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. The brother goes by the name of Wahid Jensen. Now that is not his real name. He has chosen to keep his identity concealed. It's a pseudonym. And similarly, we're not going to be showing his picture. And the reason for this is, first of all, to protect his privacy, but secondly, because we don't seek to glorify this type of struggle. This is something that we pray for you and for us and for our children that they would never have to experience. However, by bravely stepping forward to share his story, we're hoping that people will be able to realize and develop empathy for the people who, unfortunately, have to go through similar attractions and similar desires. If you're somebody who's in a community role that might have to deal with somebody in your community that experiences similar attractions and similar desires, then you're going to have to know how to deal with this and you're going to have to know the internal world or the lived experience of such people. And so that we hope this episode clearly demonstrates that as Muslims, we can condemn in the strongest of terms, same-sex intercourse and same-sex relationships and everything that comes along with it, while still tending to the souls who are looking to submit to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, that are looking to be redeemed by obedience to Allah's law and know how to encourage and support them in the best way possible.
And we would direct people to share the resources that we have at Yaqeen Institute to this end, such as our article on LGBTQ, in addition to the resources provided by Brother Waheed Jensen's podcast, A Way Beyond the Rainbow. As-salamu alaykum and welcome, Waheed, to the program. As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. Jazakumullahu khair for this opportunity. I'm very happy to be here. I'm looking forward to our discussion. Wa alaykum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. So today we want to talk about sexual attraction, identity, and Islam. Many people, I think perhaps we could say that the dominant paradigm in North America, when people are talking about who they find themselves sexually attracted to, there's an idea that this is something that one is confined to and doomed to. We hear people saying, that's just who I am. And in fact, historically, a lot of the lobbying around LGBTQ issues has been predicated on this idea that this is just who we are. What is the sort of, when we talk about our sexual desires, are our sexual desires an essential part of who we are? Alright. Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. So I think to be able to answer this question, we need to deconstruct a couple of terms. So are my sexual desires an essential part of who I am? What do I mean by essential and what do I mean by part? So yes, sexual desires are part of us, but they are part of a whole. We have other things that make us who we are. So what makes us human? So we have our intellect, we have our emotions, we have our values, we have our purpose in life and so many other things. Now, of course, this does not diminish the role of sexual desires, but it puts them in proper perspective.
Now sometimes we can either go to one extreme or the other. Sometimes we over fixate on desires, we give them more weight than they deserve. And this is particularly prevalent nowadays in today's day and age with all the media's over fixation, hyper sexualization of other people. That tends to happen. And sometimes we go to the other extreme of purging and denying those desires altogether, which is also unhealthy. So a balanced approach is needed, right? Now when we say that our sexual desire is essential to who I am, are they a part of me? They make me who I am. So in other words, if I don't act on them, am I denying myself a life of fulfillment and happiness? Because this is generally what it means. Now the answer is, I would, well, I would say it becomes tricky. So to deconstruct that, we need to try to understand the terminology because terminology plays a big role in how we see ourselves in the world around us. And there are two paradigms when it comes to looking at this matter in particular. So there's the essentialist and there's the constructionist paradigm when it comes to identities. Essentialist paradigm basically says, I am gay, I am a homosexual, I am trans, I am X, Y, and Z. This is who I am versus the constructionist paradigm, which says my desires or my attractions or what have you are part of me. They do not necessarily define who I am. My identity is independent of my desires. Now the logic behind the essentialist paradigm goes as follows. When I have particular desires, those should lead to and justify acting on particular behaviors. And those behaviors in turn would lead me to identify and associate with a particular identity. And it makes it all morally justifiable.
So the logic is that desires feed into behaviors and behaviors feed into identity, right? Whereas the constructionist paradigm doesn't say that. It says, okay, well, your desires are separate from your behaviors, which is separate from your identity altogether. So in other words, the modern essentialist paradigm, what it does is that it reduces the human being to their inclinations and their base desires such that my attractions and my lusts would dictate who I am, how I see myself in relation to the world and to other people and how I should behave as well. And historically, if I might just insert for a second, historically, what's your sense of which paradigm is more prevalent? The essentialist sort of paradigm or the constructivist sort of paradigm? Is this something that's fairly recent, where people have started defining themselves in terms of their desires, or is this something that has a longer history than that? Absolutely. I would say that if I'm not mistaken, until the 18th century or the 1800s, that the term homosexual as a noun did not exist, if I'm not mistaken, I need to look more into that. I think it was mentioned in the podcast at some point. So it just basically shows you that the acts themselves, same-sex acts or same-sex lusts have always been there, you know, for centuries, if not millennia, but never did people actually identify with their acts and use homosexual as a noun, right? Homosexual or same-sex has always been used kind of as an adjective to denote particular tendencies or actions, but not as an identity category, right? So I would say this is definitely fairly recent. This is something also that, you know, of all people, Foucault admitted in his history of sexuality, not necessarily recommending that to the average audience, but, you know, he claims it himself. He says that this is something that is completely unprecedented, kind of the marshalling of a quote-unquote sexual orientation or desires into an identity.
Another thing that I just, you know, pardon me for disrupting your train of thought, but one thing that never occurred to me until I was just hearing you say it right now is that there's a subtle irony at play because when we usually think of essentialism versus constructivism, we usually assume that constructivism is sort of the new regime of values, right? Gender is just a construct, we're told. And so presenting your maleness or performing, right, your maleness to use Judith Butler's terminology, right, is something that's seen as purely a human construct. And yet here, the tables are kind of turned, right, like where we have the sort of regime of values that is currently dominant is saying, no, actually, your desires are not constructivist, they're primarily essentialist, is that, you know, the thing that you feel, your desire moving through you is not just incidental, it is a fundamental essential part of who you are, you know, might as well not even try to get over it, you know, because it's going to just be a thing of frustration. So I hadn't realized that irony until you were just describing that for us. And actually, if you want to talk about this, when I was doing finalizing season five of the podcast, which was the last season of Way Beyond the Rainbow, and I actually came across this, the idea that we've turned the tables, as you said, gender, which is essential to us as humans now has become construction, whereas sexual desires, which is a construction in terms of how we act upon them, how we identify with them in terms of our identities, has always been something constructivist, or something that we construct, but now has become sort of essentialized. So absolutely, I mean, this is all new, and this is turning things around in ways that are unprecedented, I would say. That's very interesting. So do continue.
Yeah, so as I was saying, the essential paradigm basically focuses on your attractions, which then have to be translated into behaviors and then into an identity category. But when we contrast that with the Islamic paradigm, particularly the Qur'anic narrative, you know, Allah says in Surah Al-A'raf, and if we had willed, we could have elevated him thereby, but he adhered instead to the earth and followed his own desire. So Islam has always been about elevating human beings beyond their animalistic desires and their nafs, you know, the lower selves. And the idea is to be closer to our spirit, our ruh, that has been breathed into us by Allah, you know, that kind of pure nature that is in harmony with the universe. So going back to your question, are desires a part of who I am? Yes, they are a part of us, for sure, but they're part of the tests that we are given in this life. And we are given lawful channels through which we can channel these desires in our Islamic understanding. And of course, with same-sex attractions, it becomes tricky, we can talk about this later today, inshallah. And that's on one hand, and on the other hand, from a shari'ah perspective, shari'ah never addresses desires, it addresses acts, right? We don't talk about desires that are beyond our control. We don't categorize people based on their desires, whether these desires are sexual or otherwise. So in other words, we do not come to be a particular kind of person because I have particular desires and inclinations. And even if I do act upon my desires and inclinations, that does not make me a person who belongs to a specific identity category. So for someone who commits sodomy, for example, he's committing an act, but that is not his identity. And if he does not engage in this act, then there is nothing about them for these terms, or any other terms to apply to in the first place.
So what you're saying is that basically, you know, two arguments, or perhaps we can say slogans that the LGBTQ lobby has relied on for decades, the idea that this is the way that God made me, or that this is natural, even if it's true, it's not relevant, right? Because what you're saying is that, you know, if these are the desires you are experiencing, it doesn't logically necessitate you acting on those desires. That's very significant and profound. I think another thing that's very, very important that you touched on, and this actually has a really interesting intersection with another episode that we had recently on human rights, about how the way that we define the human being actually has implications downstream for our conception of what rights they're entitled to, and their capacities for action, right? So exactly as you just said, if we conceive of a human being in a certain way, materialistic, only one life, you know, everything is sort of this philosophical naturalism, it's just neurons firing, et cetera, et cetera, there's sort of an urgency, right, to fulfilling one's desires and acting on one's desires. If there is no afterlife, if you don't believe that there is heaven and hell or judgment or God or anything like that, this is really the only shot you have. And so it creates an imperative that, well, you know, you better live life to the fullest or else you're just kind of a fool, whereas opposed to somebody who understands the human being in a very, very different way, someone who inherently has a soul, that soul, you know, experiences an afterlife and there's this whole other realm that's beyond, that changes the calculus entirely. So we have been looking at human rights and, you know, people focus too much on the rights and not enough on the human, because the way that we define human actually sets the terrain for the entire discussion. And that's kind of something that's coming up here as well. Correct. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
And it follows that, based on what you said, that when we tell people that, you know, we follow a constructionist or a constructivist paradigm, then the immediate reply would be you are rejecting my desires or actions, so you are rejecting me as a person, right? Because everything has been amalgamated together. We're not allowed to talk about morality anymore because sexual orientation and therefore the practice and identity, it has all been equated to something like race, for example. It's become a human rights or social justice issue. But the trick here, I think, is to realize that once we can separate desires from acts from identity, it becomes easier to kind of deconstruct the whole paradigm. So this is something we can start with. Yes. No, that's a very good point. And I think Dr. Sharif has mentioned something similar about how the modern era has amalgamated things that should remain separate and separated things that should have remained amalgamated and brought together. And I think that's exactly what his argument is on that. Now, reviewing some of your work, you had one reflection that I think is extremely profound and important, especially for the Muslim community to register. And that is one of the knee-jerk reactions, or maybe we shouldn't say that, maybe we should say that while well-intended, okay, and emphasizing the constructivist nature of our desires, people want to compare it to any other sin. And in the ways in which we've discussed, that has a certain play, right? That has a certain merit. But there's also certain shortcomings to comparing sexual desires to any other sin, such as stealing, right? Or such as these sorts of things. Could you explore for us and lay out for us, where does that analogy fall apart? And what's the significance to the limitations of that analogy? That is an excellent question.
But when it comes to sexual desire or acting on these sexual desires, there's a huge difference. Are we talking about actions or behaviors? We can do both, if you like. So I think that in general, whether we're talking about the desires themselves or acting upon them and just equating it to any other sin, for example, equating that in general, I would say an advantage would be that we're able to correct particular notions that some people have gone to an extreme with, that, for example, such actions are the most reprehensible ever. So when people say that this is like the most reprehensible kabira you can ever commit, or anyone who commits such an act is going to hell, there's no point in repenting whatsoever, because you're doomed, right? So that's an extreme. And in other contexts, there is also the constant demonization of people who struggle with same sex attractions, or who identify as part of the LGBT community, regardless whether they act on these urges or not. So really, if we're talking about whether it's the attractions or the actions here, it puts things in perspective, and it kind of allows us to re-examine the narrative while staying true to the Qur'an and the Sunnah, to the Islamic narrative, that really there is a chance for repentance, that Allah's door is always open for those who seek Him, that once you have healthy guilt, that you resolve to make amends, you don't go back to those behaviors as much as you can, given your own personal context, then we can start over with a clean slate. You know, I think that this has opened up the conversation to actually correct things and allow people to see things for what they truly are, and to really bring about a balance back to this narrative that for a very long time was not there in so many different Muslim communities and the religious discourse, unfortunately.
So let's say this is one of the advantages. Now, the disadvantage, on the other hand, would be to go to the opposite extreme of saying, you know, I'm going to use this as an excuse, and, you know, it's just like any other sin, no big deal, I'll just do it, who cares, I'll repent, maybe, whatever it is. So I think that neither extreme is correct or healthy, a balanced approach is necessary, one that kind of focuses on putting things in proper perspective in terms of what is halal, what is haram, and reminding people of the importance of tawbah. For all of us, really, whether we struggle with SSA or not, I mean, we all need repentance on a daily basis, and to be reminded that Allah's mercy is always there, but also to kind of be careful not to transgress boundaries that are already set by Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la, and to be, you know, nonchalant when it comes to them, because we're going to be held accountable, and just like Allah is most merciful, He is also la'adin, and He is just. Sure. That's fascinating. I want to pick up there in just a second, but I want to real quick circle back to something you said, because I think people need to realize how serious this is. You had mentioned that some people are under the false impression, or they are, let's say, exaggerate, how bad, if we call it liwat, or we call it sodomy, etc., is in the kind of matrix of the sharia and its rulings, and that is not to obviously downplay this. It is haram. It is, you know, all these sorts of things. However, I have encountered people who have tried to tell me that it is more harmful than shirk. I have had people actually try to tell me that, and I had to check them. I said, think about what you're saying, you know, and why this is significant, I think, is because it shows the importance of Muslims being grounded in their religious teachings,
the teachings of their deen, before getting involved in either a culture war or a political war or something like this, because the temptation is always to fall to one extreme or the next. If you're not properly grounded, you're just going to blow back and forth in the wind without anything to tether you to something fixed and real, and so whether it's the one extreme, we have Muslims now, we've seen, you know, in the last month, literally committing kufr by saying that they don't think that the Quran is right, or they don't think that Islam is correct, because they're sort of maybe indoctrinated by certain leftist values and things like that. That's one extreme. But then there is the other extreme as well, where there are some people who think that this is worse than shirk, and this is the absolute worst thing that could possibly happen, and like you said, no redemption. So this is an extremely important thing to realize that without positive, constructive sort of understanding of your faith, you don't stand a chance. When it comes to getting tugged onto one side or the other, left or right, you're going to be assessing the truthfulness of your position in opposition and antagonism to the person that you're reacting to, rather than what does the actual deen say? What does Allah say? What does the Prophet ﷺ say? How much priority should this thing have? Where does this thing fall in the grand scheme of the sharia and the divine law? So that's a hugely, that's an extremely significant point, and I'm really glad that you touched on that. Another thing, so when it comes around to, I wanted to see what your thoughts were on another potential shortcoming of the just any other sin sort of line, which is very important, as you said, for all the reasons that we said, cleaving or disentangling these things that have been drawn together, such as desire and identity and action and things like that.
But is there another shortcoming to using that sort of discourse that this is just like any other sin, in the sense that when someone is responding to a sexual desire, it seems to me a lot more immediate and a lot more powerful and deep than the desire to steal, for example, right? Could you maybe discuss, and this is something we had marked for discussion maybe the next point, is sex just about sex, right? Is there more to it than just, you know, I have like, I imagine sort of all these desires and they're almost on a plane, like I can put them on a table and they're all sort of equal. The desire to have illicit sex within the sharia or the desire to steal or the desire to backbite or the desire to, right? All of the possible desires that we could imagine, it doesn't strike me that the desire, the sexual desire is equal to the rest. It actually seems much more powerful and evocative and immediate than many, if not all of the rest. So what are your thoughts on that? I agree 100%. I wish all imams and scholars would listen to you, because this is something that we've struggled with for a very long time. And let me tell you this, because I was thinking about this when it comes to this question in particular. It really hurts a lot of us when the struggle with the desires, we're not talking about actions, we're talking about desires or attractions themselves. When same-sex attractions are compared to any other struggle out there, right? We understand that people who don't necessarily deal with those struggles, they try to put things in perspective. They try to make things easy, more relatable for individuals who struggle with this. And, you know, we understand this. And sometimes it may be necessary, because for those of us struggling, sometimes we're caught up in our own world.
We lose sight of the bigger picture. So it's sometimes necessary to kind of put things in perspective. That I can give them credit for. But when we talk about, you know, comparisons, they're not always valid. And as you said, you cannot really compare same-sex attractions to the desire to steal, to any other desire, because they're just different. And they come from different places. And there are lots of intricacies to consider. And let me just give you an example. A friend once told me, and he struggles with same-sex attractions or experiences them. He said that, you know, something along the lines of people cannot just assume that I, as a man who struggled with SSA, can perceive my struggle as that of any other man out there who has the obligation of shielding himself from adultery or fornication, right? Because, for one, religious rulings make it easier for men and women to avoid sin through the rulings like gender segregation, avoiding being alone with someone from the opposite gender and seclusion. Lowering your gaze, etc. And then marriage is a perfect channel for people with opposite-sex attractions to be able to fulfill their desires. And he was like, on the other hand, for me, as someone who has exclusive same-sex attractions, we struggle when we're in the same room with someone of the same sex who we find very attractive, for example, because we have a meeting with our boss, let's say. Or let's say we're at the gym and we're in the locker room with other guys, and it's like a high-intensity situation, right? High-stress situation. Now, it does not mean, mind you, that it is impossible to endure or people should avoid giving advice or drawing comparisons or what have you. But we need to put things in proper perspective and to acknowledge that things are difficult. Things may have different levels of difficulty.
And we try to see how to help each other in ways not based on how we perceive are necessary for others, but actually by putting ourselves in the other person's shoes, identifying their difficulty and their struggle and trying to help them with what actually helps that other person. Not what we think is going to help that person, which is not easy to do, you know? Yeah, no, that's really profound and important. And I'm just imagining in front of my eyes as we're having this conversation, multiple avenues in which this is true, this point about how, you know, yes, it is a sin or an urge like other urges, but then not really. It's very different. So those ones, the constellation of sort of issues that you talked about and the point about the Sharia and the Khalil and all those things is extremely instructive is one aspect of it. And then we also have sort of the societal dimension, right? Because nobody is cheering you on to backbite. No one's cheering you on to steal. You know, we have, you know, deep pockets and, and, and, you know, think tanks that are basically setting up a scenario that are giving you lots of rewards, whether mental or, you know, whatever, from basically to identify yourself with this urge and then act on it, etc, etc. Which is completely incomparable to pretty much any other, I can't think of any, any sort of sinful urge off the top of my head that even comes close to that. So I think the point, one of the points or one of the takeaways for realizing all this, why do we care about this nuance is because we, again, another extreme that we don't want to allow ourselves to be baited into in a reactionary way.
We can't let our izzah or our sort of our pride in our deen and our ghira, right? Our, our, our jealousy for protecting normative Islam, which has been completely under attack. Everybody knows it, or at least they should know it by now. We can't let that allow us to, we can't let that prevent us from rather differentiating between faithful strugglers and people who are trying to change the deen, right? Because people who are trying to change the deen, those people need to be okay, may Allah guide them and forgive them, etc. But at the discursive level, they need to be dealt with some force because we're talking about changing Islam and you've crossed the red line and that's entirely, you know, way, way too far. But somebody who is a sincere struggler, look at all the things that you've just laid out for us. This person has an open gaping wound, right? And they need to be treated as such, as opposed to eyed with suspicion of what are they trying to do to Islam or, you know, or, or almost like treated like a leper, right? They've got some sort of disease that you're going to catch by sitting in the same room as them. And it's, that's, that's an extremely important thing that people need to register. There's another dimension as well, when we talk about the idea of that, you know, sex attractions or same sex attractions aren't just about sex. Could you talk about some of the, there's yet other dimensions beyond societal, beyond, you know, the Sharia and how the Sharia kind of is predicated upon some sort of gender differentiation and normative sort of sexual desires. There's other things that have to do with connections and attachments and trauma that goes beyond. Could you, could you elaborate for us on that? Absolutely. I'd be happy to.
So this is a huge discussion and I actually elaborated a lot on this over so many episodes and it would be on the rainbow. So, but for today's podcast, to be able to discuss this, we need to explain a couple of important points, particularly themes like core shame, contributing factors, as well as the need for connection and belonging, like you said. So I'm just going to try to lay them out one after the other. But before I do that, there is one crucial point that we often miss when we talk about same sex attractions, which is not that, which is that not all human attraction is sexual by nature. And that includes same sex attractions. And I think that a lot of people listening might be surprised to learn that. Actually, psychologists and human researchers have defined many kinds of attractions, what they call domains of attraction, whether towards the same or the opposite sex. And that can include, obviously, sexual or erotic. And then there's the romantic, there's the aesthetic, there's the emotional, there's the social and spiritual. And you have variations thereof and different additions, obviously, when you go to different resources. And many of these may overlap, such that an attraction can be platonic in nature. So I can be attracted to someone and attracted to him at a spiritual, emotional level, devoid of any lusts or erotic feelings to that person. So that is very important to take into account, because a lot of people freak out that they are attracted to someone of the same sex, and it's not necessarily sexual, it's more emotional or aesthetic. They are appreciating their beauty, and they start to question their sexuality. This needs to be mentioned, and people need to understand that there are different domains.
Now, what is problematic here is only the domain of the erotic, as long as it becomes a problem where it is acted upon, or it becomes something recurrent, and the person identifies that as their personal identity as a homosexual or as part of the LGBT community and starts to advocate for that. That's a different thing, we're not talking about that. But when we talk about same-sex attractions in particular, we're talking about the erotic or sexual attractions, which coincide with lustful desires. And from an Islamic standpoint, we know they're problematic when they're acted upon. But also, we need to understand that same-sex attractions themselves involve the other kinds of attraction, so the aesthetic attraction, the emotional, the spiritual. And these, in and of themselves, they're not problematic, Islamically speaking. In fact, they're actually celebrated in our tradition. And they are even necessary for all men in particular, and for all human beings really, but for men in particular, for their own personal growth journey. And for people dealing with issues of same-sex attraction or traumas, they are necessary for our own healing and recovery journey. So I just wanted to lay this out at the beginning, because it's important to mention it. And when we consider that, going into this topic, with regards to how same-sex attractions might emerge, this is not intended to be a generalization, because experiences do tend to vary across a wide spectrum. And for a large number of us, if you really delve deep into early childhood and teenage experiences, doing this has been helpful for us to understand a lot of the origins of these attractions, which in turn has helped us address them in meaningful ways to different extents. So early childhood dynamics, for example, which may involve the same or the opposite sex parent or parental figure, if a parent was not there.
Dynamics with the siblings, for example. Relations with peers at school. Having body image issues, for example. Social and cultural influences, particularly in this day and age. A history of childhood sexual abuse, for example. Histories of complex trauma. All of these are factors that correlate with shame as well as same-sex attractions. And they ring true to many of us. But this is not exhaustive. And people's experiences vary. So this is necessary to mention. Just in preparation for this episode, literally this week, I had someone reach out to me in our community. And she had known her son identifies as gay and has for a long time. She just learned that he had been abused as a child sexually. And it was heartbreaking. You could tell she was in tears. It was like, I thought I was so safe. But now, subhanAllah, a lot of people don't realize also. And this is to drive home the urgency also to our communities when it comes to background checks and checks and balances. And making sure that the people who have access to our youth are people of upright moral character. And that there's protocol and there's guardrails to prevent this stuff from happening. Because you're talking about a lifetime of consequences. SubhanAllah. Absolutely. And to add to that, it's necessary for parents to actually be invested in their children's lives. So that if, God forbid, something like that were to happen, the child wouldn't feel ashamed to hide that from their parents. Because they would be afraid of repercussions. The ideal situation would be, I would talk to my parents about everything and anything in a safe and loving environment. But that unfortunately is not the case for a lot of us. SubhanAllah.
Understanding that in terms of childhood experiences, we need to also try to understand something else, which is part of healthy human development. For healthy human development, two essential needs need to be fulfilled for us. By the parents or the caregivers during our early stages of life. One of them is called the need for proper attachment. And the other is called the need for authenticity. Proper attachment means the ability for me to attach to my parent or parental figure. To be able to survive and to thrive. Particularly during the early stages of life when I'm completely dependent on them to be able to survive. I need to attach to them. I need to be safe and secure. So that I can survive. Now the second need, which is the need for authenticity. It actually means that I am free and able to express my needs and my emotions safely within my home environment. Without fear of punishment or consequence. Now ideally that would happen. With proper attachment and authentic expression. We are set for a healthy rhythm with our relationships for the rest of our lives. With ourselves and with other people. Now if one or both of them are turbulent or have been insecure. Then that is going to create a lot of chaos in the person's lives. The idea is to also realize that we as human beings were created by Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. We're hardwired for connection. We cannot survive on our own. We need connection with other people. And anything that brings a threat to that connection is going to lead to something that is called shame. And I've learned so much from the works of Renee Brown on the topic of shame. And I encourage a lot of people to check out her work if they're not familiar with it already. Because the way that she defines shame in this particular context is that it is the fear of disconnection.
That there is something about me that if other people find out about me or see it in me. Then I will no longer be worthy of their connection. So this basically translates into that negative self-talk. Where you tell yourself that you are not good enough. You're not smart enough. You're not beautiful enough. No matter what you do or how hard you try on a daily basis. You're not worthy enough. And if you try to be a better person or you try to overcome that narrative. Then the narrative fights back and says who do you think you are? Now I think that this rings true to a lot of us. Whether we experience same-sex attractions or not. I think this is human. We've all had issues growing up. We grew up in home environments where we had to suppress. To play pretend. Where it wasn't safe to express our emotions. We may have put on masks and walked through life. But deep inside of us we felt that there was a piece of us that never got to be seen or heard. Or to be validated and loved. That kind of true connection that we're talking about. Now keeping everything that I've said in mind. Going back to men and women experiencing same-sex attractions. How does that kind of tie in to our discussion today? For a lot of us growing up as children. We did not feel seen or affirmed by our parents or caregivers. Particularly the ones who belong to the same sex. So a boy with his father or paternal figure. Girl with her mother or maternal figure. Maybe feeling ignored constantly or rejected. We felt hopeless and helpless after a long time. We felt that no matter what we did. We were just not good enough for their affection, attention and approval. So the need for authenticity which is for me to express myself. Has been stifled. And because we are hardwired. Our survival brain needs to survive to be able to take care of us. We would let go of the need of authenticity. In order to have that need for attachment. So okay I'm going to do whatever you want from me. As long as you take care of me and allow me to survive.
So because otherwise anything else is going to be interpreted by my brain as annihilation. And my brain is hardwired for survival. So we don on those false selves and those masks. And we pretend, we please others. In hopes that we would earn their attention and affection and approval. So it's very common for children growing up in these home environments. To kind of retreat within themselves. To retreat to the quote unquote weaker parent. To carry on a sense of weakness and failure and victimization. And because that sense of proper attachment did not happen with one or both parents. We start to develop coping strategies. And protective mechanisms. And one of them that is mentioned in the literature is known as defensive detachment. And as the name implies. It's a defense mechanism where you detach to protect yourself. You detach because you've been under a lot of pain. Under a lot of stress. You felt unseen, unvalidated for a very long period of time. You've tried to attach to that father figure or that mother figure. But they kept on shooting you down. That eventually you would reject them and what they represent. And for boys growing up that rejection tends to translate. I reject you and what you represent. Meaning your masculinity. And so a lot of people who struggle with same sex attractions. Mainly men who struggle with that. They view masculinity in a very negative light. They're afraid of it. And they hate it. But deep down they want to belong. But they don't know how to. Because there's a lot of pain. There's a lot of shame associated with that. You know. So that in and of itself defensive detachment happens. With boys and girls who experience same sex attractions. Again it's not a generalization. But there is a high correlation. And the idea is that it's not just. The problem is it never stops there. It's not just detachment from the parents. It carries on to peers. Like colleagues at school.
Friends. And particularly during the pre-adolescent phases. It's basically detachment from members of my own sex. I feel inferior to them. It feels like I'm on the outside looking in. I'm attracted to what they're doing. I want to belong with them. I want to do what they're doing. I really enjoy looking at them being with each other. But I'm so intimidated at the same time. And what happens is that if that child is not held during these critical years. To be able to process those wounds and issues. Then there's a very high likelihood that that person is going to develop long term relationships. Down the line. That are characterized by shyness. And inferiority. And feeling of not belonging. And not feeling truly loved. Because it just carries on the wound. And that on its own. Has to do with shame and connection and belonging. But what adds another perspective to it. That a lot of people don't realize. Is that a lot of boys and girls. Men and women experiencing sex attractions. They are given a hypersensitive temperament. By Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. We're given that temperament. And people think there's a negative connotation associated with hypersensitive. Oh you're a cry baby. Or you're too sensitive. It doesn't mean that. It basically means that. You are creative and artistic. You are empathetic. You're deeply compassionate. You're more attuned to your environment. And to other people's energies. So it is a double edged sword. Because it comes with many gifts. But the downside is. That you become more vulnerable to emotional injury. Because you tend to absorb people's energies. And take them on personally. If you don't know how to process them really well. You tend to drown in that negativity. And it adds more salt to injury. You become driven to isolation.
You're already insecurely attached to your parents or to your family environment. And then you will have to find an escape out of all of this pain. And one thing that I've recently come across is. An analogy that is given by Dr. Gabor Matei. Who works a lot in the trauma field. And he says if I tap myself on the shoulder. I don't feel any pain at all. But if my shoulder was bare. And there was a burn on my shoulder. And the nerve endings were free. And they were close to the surface. Meaning that I am thin skinned. And I try to tap myself on that wound. What do I feel? I'm going to feel severe throbbing pain. So that sensitivity is actually that you are able to feel. And you feel more when things go wrong. And the more pain that you have. The more you have to build defenses around that pain. And the more the mental health conditions that you're going to have. Which are going to reflect some of those defenses that you've built around that pain. And so on the one hand hypersensitivity tends to correlate with creativity and empathy and compassion. Which I would attest 100% that the men and women that I've spoken to in the SSA community. They are all of that. And this is a beautiful gift from Allah. But at the same time this hypersensitivity correlates with high levels of addiction, self-harm, and mental health problems. It just makes the one thing that I keep coming back to again and again as you lay all this out for us. Is the crucial amanah and trust that being a parent is. Yes. SubhanAllah. Unfortunately in our sort of neo-liberal economy and how modern society is set up. There's sort of a, there's almost a deal made or a supposition made that you can kind of be a hands off parent.
You have, you know, you've got everything is sort of, what's the word? Is like monetized and professionalized. You have the nanny. Then you have the school is going to take care of the education. You have the extracurricular activities. You have all these sorts of things that basically take it away from you as the parent. And yet we see as time goes on and on and on. How significant that prophetic model of parenting is. When the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam used to correct people for not kissing their children. Yes. And or for being unfair in how they treat various children according, you know, compared to others. How we really cannot afford. We never could afford, but we were under delusion for a long time. We cannot afford to be on the sidelines as parents. That you have to get in the game and be very active and intentional and caring and involved. And, you know, unfortunately we have a long way to go with this in the Muslim community. A lot of our parenting needs to, it's very cultural. And I mean that in the bad sense of the term, not in the good sense of the term. When we're just kind of on cruise control, reproducing whatever our parents did. Which oftentimes also was very damaging to us. You know, so subhanAllah, look at how we have this opportunity to break the chain. But it's an enormous, enormous responsibility to have a child and to give that child what that child needs. In order to have a, you know, healthy attachment and a well-rounded sort of safe and fulfilling and nurturing upbringing. So subhanAllah. Sorry, I do continue. JazakAllah khair for mentioning that. That is very important. And as they say, you know, it takes a village. And, you know, all throughout history, it's not just about parents. It's about the extended family. You know, you have the grandparents from both sides of the family. You have an extended family. You have neighbors. You have the elders in the community. You have mentors.
So if one of the parents was not available, you would have another parental figure who would fill that role. So that was kind of taken care of somehow. But nowadays, things are becoming more difficult because of the individualism and the consumerism that you've said. And everything is just about me, me, me. And, you know, let's commercialize this and that. It does leave those needs uncared for, unfulfilled, for sure. SubhanAllah. So this is absolutely important. So, I mean, following everything that we've said so far, it is not a surprise when we see that a lot of men and women who experience same-sex attractions or gender dysphoria, they tend to struggle with a large, let's say a wide array of mental health issues and self-sabotaging behaviors. The idea is that the short-term effects are going to be soothing because we're trying to numb that pain. But they themselves are very addictive, those habits. And they tend to propagate a vicious cycle on the long run. And any addiction can be the case. If you're talking about substance abuse, if you're talking about pornography addiction, if you're talking about sex addiction, gambling, anything, it's basically I'm seeking a thrill, quote-unquote, to numb that pain and to seek a bit of peace amidst the chaos. And unfortunately what happens is that those people who struggle with addiction, they're further alienated. They're shunned. They're not helped. And that only fuels the vicious cycle of shame and isolation. I have a quick question on that. This might be just completely misrepresentation, but from some of the studies and literature that I've come across seem to indicate that there's a problem with promiscuity in the, quote-unquote, homosexual community. And that's actually why, as far as optics go, the LGBTQ movement and lobby has attempted to represent themselves as respect, like they've played respectability politics, right?
Tried to represent themselves as stable couples that are just like every other middle-class family that are just as able to take care of children as anybody else. First of all, is that accurate? Because I'm not an expert in this area. Would that possibly be an indication maybe, or one of the potential causes of that promiscuity is that you're trying to fill a void that can't be filled with what you're actually pursuing? Absolutely. Absolutely. I would say so, yes. So you are trying to satiate your thirst, to quench your thirst by drinking seawater. That's the analogy. You're trying to fulfill that desire for secure attachment and authenticity and belonging and connection, but it's never going to satiate because you're going down the wrong way, right? The promiscuity is correct, particularly among men who identify as homosexual. Because, and I'm going to get to that in a bit, there is the idea that the other person is mysterious. He's mystified in my eye, because as we said, I'm feeling inferior to them. I'm not connecting with them. I don't feel a sense of belonging. So they are mysterious to me. So they're kind of exotic in a way. They have their own mystique. But once I have them, that mystique goes away. So they're no longer interested in me, or I'm no longer interested in them. So I have to jump from one person to another. So actually, in the world of quote-unquote gay men, monogamy is the exception, not the rule. And even among gay men who are already married, open relationships are actually quite common. Now, again, this is not a generalization. This is not to say that every person who identifies as gay or homosexual or has SSA and who chooses to live this lifestyle is not going to be monogamous. There are cases like that, for sure.
But if you look at the entire kind of population, it is the exception and not the rule. And promiscuity is a given. And it's actually celebrated, unfortunately. Yes. So I have another question. I'm not sure if you had reached sort of the end of that train of thought. My following question would have to be with sexual urges and how plastic are they? How much can they change, I guess? And then the question would be if they can change, how much? But don't let me interrupt you if you had some other thoughts you wanted to tie up for. Sure. We can get into that. But I just wanted to mention that basically to tie up the chain of thought, the idea that when you consider the background of internalized shame and rejection and detachment, and then the feelings of not belonging and not being able to fit in, particularly with members of the same sex, and then I have unmet affectional, emotional, affirmative needs, and all of that backdrop, and the hypersensitive temperament, and maybe some traumas or maybe not. What happens is that when I hit adolescence, things start to take an intense sexual turn. So for a lot of us, it started like an infatuation towards someone of the same sex. It wasn't sexual at first. But then we realized that we're attracted to or we admire actually some characteristics that they have that we lack in ourselves. For example, if they have particular athletic abilities or they have particular physical features or personality traits or whatever. And then what happens is that it turns into an erotic desire. And the idea that I mentioned is that it is directed towards something that I'm not familiar with, something that is exotic to me, not something that I'm familiar with. So for a lot of men, for example, who experience same-sex attractions, they are more familiar with the feminine than the masculine.
So I'm not attracted to the feminine. I'm actually attracted to the masculine because the masculine is more unapproachable. It is mystified. So the idea here is to understand all of that because it makes a big difference in terms of what areas of help we can offer individuals who experience same-sex attractions. We need to realize that these experiences vary, obviously. No intention to generalize whatsoever. But there are a lot of shared areas in terms of comorbidities like mood disorders, addictions, behavioral problems, inferiority issues, relationship problems, etc. And the idea that compassion and patience are very important on this path. The idea that it's not just about parents, it's about the community. Imams have a role. Teachers have a role. Therapists have a role. Your family members, as in your siblings, your extended family, they have a role. Mentors in the community have a role. The elders have a role. So it does take a village. Regardless whether you're a child or an adult, we all need each other. So going back to the question, is SSA just about sex? I hope this answers it. No, it's not just about sex. Whatever the background story is, the heart of the matter is the need for connection and belonging. To be seen, to be heard, to be validated, to be appreciated, to be told that they were worthy, to love and to be loved. That is human. That is for all human beings. Before you get to the idea about sexual urges changing, I just have to drop a comment. When it comes to the village and it takes a village, we have to really seriously have a reckoning with the way that we're living. If the brother lives in New York and sister lives in California and the parents live in Texas, this is a very recent arrangement of human living and resident patterns.
If it has negative consequences, then it needs to be rethought. We have to start making decisions based off of outcomes and priorities. This is all tied in with faith. Being close to one another is something that has positive outcomes for our faith. Even just look at the attachment. I remember growing up, my grandfather was somebody that I connected with probably more than anybody. Having a lot of time with him was a really important part of my upbringing. Just to have a variety of offerings of the personalities and skills and temperaments and things like that to choose from is extremely important. If we're depriving, we're basically raising the stakes in our modern arrangement of living. It's like you better get along with your parents or else you're really playing with fire. If this is something that we're facing as a community, then we need to rethink about it. We need to rethink it and come up with a better living arrangement that's going to have better outcomes for us. Absolutely. I agree 100%. If that is not possible, if you look at our tradition, when you see how sacred knowledge is transmitted across generations, it's from a teacher to a student. It's like vertical transmission of knowledge. You have a wiser person who's older, who's more experienced in life, and he transmits this knowledge. It's not just sacred knowledge. It's also about adept manners, dealing with life, ways of thinking. It's all sorts of things that have to do with your everyday life to make you a man. It's a rite of passage. A lot of the tribes throughout history and a lot of communities actually realize that there is a transition from boyhood to manhood. That masculinity is earned, it's not given. Those rites of passage have been interpreted differently depending on different cultures and communities throughout history.
We are told that boys have to be initiated into manhood. We have to belong to a group of men. We have to learn the ways of men. When you see how our communities are based in an Islamic framework, we have to pray in congregation. We celebrate Eid in congregation. We go about our affairs in congregation. Sure, we have things that we do between us and Allah alone, but we have things that have to be done as part of a community. When we stand together in congregation and pray, we have elderly, you have small children, and you have middle-aged people. You have all people from all sorts of backgrounds and age groups. That basically, if I cannot have my family with me or I have problems with them, then there is a chance for someone in my community to hold me by the hand and become my mentor or father figure or mother figure, because that is a way to compensate. I think that is necessary for us to think about. Islam has offered us so much that the modern world has taken away from us. We need to go back to that. Well said. Next question on the docket I had posed. Can sexual urges change? Yes and no, and if yes, how much? Right, so this question. Basically, after everything that I have mentioned, I would say that it is necessary to understand what we mean by change, because change can mean so many different things to so many different people. Again, we need to go back to terminology and try to deconstruct that. I would say that this conversation is usually had in reference to therapy. It is usually considered in terms of quote-unquote conversion therapy. This is a highly contested and controversial topic. Let me address this first and then try to deconstruct a lot of other issues. When it comes to therapy, we need to understand that there are models of therapy like trauma therapy,
reintegrative therapy, addiction therapy, certain therapeutic models that are known as attachment-based therapeutic models, and among others, that have been helpful for many men and women, regardless whether they experience same-sex attractions or not. But for those who do, they have helped them address some of those core issues that we have just talked about, like shame, detachment, trauma, abuse, body image wounds, addiction, what have you. Some people have noticed that after they have been able to walk through those issues and deal with them, that their same-sex attractions tend to fluctuate. What I mean by attractions here, again, is the erotic, lustful desires, not the spiritual, emotional, aesthetic aspects, which are not problematic. And by the same token, those same people have realized that they started to develop opposite-sex attractions, or that their opposite-sex attraction actually became more profound. But is this all across the board? No. Because, again, it's a spectrum. Some people do experience that, some people don't, and some people to different degrees. So it varies according to different cultural contexts, to different moral paradigms, depending on how you define that and how long you actually follow up that person. So let me give you an example. If someone was struggling for a very long time with same-sex fantasies and sexually acting out in whatever way, and then through proper support and therapy and communal support and all of that, they were able to get to a place where that person starts to actually appreciate the beauty of someone from the same sex, without actually lusting after them or desiring them in a sexual way, but they appreciate their beauty. Is that a change? I would say yes. That is a major shift, right? For someone who was repulsed by the opposite sex, for example, to find themselves being able to develop attractions to the opposite sex, or actually to someone, only one person that they want to have as a potential spouse,
to be able to get married and have kids with them or not, whatever it is. That would also be a major shift. And then it's a spectrum again. So it depends on different people what we mean by change. But in terms of quote-unquote conversion therapy, and just allow me to explain this a little bit because it's highly contentious, and a lot of us in the Muslim community, we kind of, yeah, it's just all across the board, and people don't know what it means or what constitutes conversion therapy and what doesn't. It is, unfortunately, it is used politically as a quote-unquote wastebasket term. It's an umbrella term that basically refers to anything and everything, any form of therapy that addresses same-sex attraction one way or the other. So you're talking about extremes of electroshock therapy and boot camps and things that are just inhumane, all the way to evidence-based therapy that actually helps you deal with your traumas. So lumping all of that in one category is very unfortunate. Now, we understand that, of course, there are political reasons why this is happening. And, of course, there are also reasons that you want to ban particular forms of therapy that are actually downright harmful and not helpful, and we agree with that. But to also, you know, de-license therapists and ban forms of therapy that actually have the potential to help people who themselves voluntarily seek that kind of therapy, to be able to live a life that is in line with their own value system, I mean, that is just unfair and intolerant. And for people who preach tolerance, right, left, and center, I'm like, it has to go both ways, right? So we need to understand that conversion therapy is not what it is. I mean, of course, there are some things that we reject, obviously. But to say that any kind of therapy that helps people with same-sex attraction is conversion therapy, therefore it needs to be outlawed, that is also not correct. And there's a contradiction there as well because, you know,
somebody who experiences same-sex attractions in order to take on the mantle, the identity, the whole nine yards that they're being encouraged to is an act of their own choice, perhaps an autonomous will, just as much as it is to say, no, this is not who I am and I want to try to fight or change it or live otherwise. So it really is, you know, the mask is off of toleration. It's really just about tolerating one very specific sort of regime of values. Yes, yes, 100%. And so just to kind of wrap up this idea about conversion therapy, I didn't want to even talk about it that long, but the idea is I even reject the term conversion therapy because conversion actually means you're adamant about changing that person. But that's unfair because it becomes the main focus for some people, and if it doesn't happen, then they become disappointed and they lose hope. And that should not be the case. And unfortunately, in the Muslim community, what happens is that this has been used against individuals who struggle with same-sex attractions by claiming that there is a chance for a quote-unquote cure or that people have just to, they just have to put in the work and they will be quote-unquote healed. Because once you mention that there is a chance for change, then your parents are going to start breathing down your neck and they'll be like, okay, we're going to take you to this therapist. You're going to have to do this X, Y, and Z. And if you don't change that, that's on you. And that even fuels the shame further. If you succeed, that's wonderful. If you don't, then you're the one to blame. Who says that? This is never helpful. It adds more salt to injury. It adds more shame and guilt to the person who's already feeling inadequate and unsafe. Things don't work that way. Very American bootstraps sort of logic that, you know, if you have experience, it subtracts a lot of the equation entirely, you know, theologically. Because at the end of the day, Allah just set aside what's going to stay and what's going to be removed or changed or whatever. Exactly.
You know, to pin it all on somebody. It's like some people do the same thing with prayer. They say, well, you know, and it's true to a certain extent. Yes, you have to put in the work. Nobody's saying to not put in the work. But at the same time, we don't believe in materialistic determinism such that, well, all you have to do is take this one means and then it's going to 1,000% of the time result in this result that you're looking for. That's not how it works. Allah gets to decide. Absolutely. 100%. And, you know, experiences vary, of course. And we are all tried with different trials and tribulations. We have different contexts, we have different temperaments, and we have different abilities. So, no one experience is better than the other one in this regard. And nothing in our Deen in particular says that the same-sex attractions in and of themselves are blameworthy or they make the person any less than others. On the contrary, if that person is striving for the sake of their Lord on a daily basis, they might actually be at a higher station than those who are judging them. Well, it's like someone who has to walk to the masjid as opposed to riding in a car. There's more, you know, in the Prophet ﷺ said, is that Jannah is enshrouded with distasteful things. And what could be more distasteful than struggling against, again, a desire that we've tried to lay out here that is way more personal, way more urgent and intimate and totalizing in some sort of way. Not 100% totalizing, but more so than other desires that exist. 100%, yeah, I think there's definitely a strong argument to be made there. So, going back to your question, can sexual desires change? I think that I would try to, and I encourage people to consider changing the word change.
I would say that a paradigm shift actually tends to happen when we no longer focus on change as a yardstick for success or failure, but we actually focus on the extent to which I can live a balanced life. That is true to Allah ﷻ and my Deen. To what extent I can cultivate taqwa at the end of the day. Because that way, if that is our litmus test, regardless if I experience any change whatsoever in my same or opposite sex attractions, or regardless whether I get married or not, which is beyond me anyway, it would not matter at the end because what matters to me is the fact that I'm trying as much as I can on a daily basis to stay true to Allah and His Deen and to practice and cultivate taqwa. And what I tell people is don't focus on change. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. It's all in Allah's hands anyway. We should not care about that. What matters is for us to focus on this. Am I healthy spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, and socially to live a life that pleases Allah in all these different realms? Because that's what ultimately matters. If we keep that in front of us, if we keep that goal front and center, that Allah is what matters, then anything else is just noise. We're all tested and tried in this life. We may not live to witness our trials get resolved in this lifetime, but we all have that potential to kind of draw closer to Allah ﷻ. And this makes a huge difference, not only in the lives of men and women who experience same-sex attractions, but also their parents and the family members and even the imams and the teachers and therapists and the entire community, that I don't want this person to change. I actually want to help them draw closer to Allah ﷻ and become a better human being at all levels. So it changes the entire equation. And my personal take on the matter is try to have a balanced, holistic approach.
Again, focus on the physical, the mental, the emotional, the spiritual, and social realms. And therapy is just one aspect of it. If it helps, it helps. If it doesn't, it doesn't. But don't neglect the other aspects. Because again, we need social connection. We need to focus on our physical bodies with healthy food, healthy sleep, healthy exercise. We need to work on our mental health problems and our traumas. And we need to cultivate a strong spiritual connection with Allah ﷻ. And that is necessary. If change happens through that in our sexual desires, wonderful. If it doesn't, then that's also wonderful. Yeah, that's extremely well said. And it comes back to something I've reflected upon several times, which is that Islam is about process and not necessarily about results. The Prophet ﷺ, he said, you know, if the day of judgment were to be established and you have a sapling in your hand, then you plant the sapling, right? And even if you're not going to benefit in some sort of utilitarian way from the results, it's about the journey, it's about the process, it's about the intention, it's about the struggle. And really, you know, the afterlife is for the mutaqim. We're running out of time here. You know, we did talk about sort of how a lot of the tough talk around, you know, the LGBTQ lobby and the agenda, etc., you know, has been important. We've woken up, I think, finally in North America to the dangers that are posed. But unfortunately, some of the crudeness of the language that is sometimes employed or the exaggerations ends up sweeping away too much in the torrent, which is then people who are faithfully struggling with this particular struggle. So I'd like, if you would, to conclude our sort of discussion today with giving us an idea of what does true support look like. Okay, alright, bismillah.
So I think that true support is two main things, at least the way that I see it. Having a holistic approach in dealing with the matter, and then what we can do at the communal level. So by holistic approach, I kind of touched upon this in the previous answer. And it comes from the idea that Islam is a holistic religion. It honors your body, it honors your mind, your heart, your spirit, and your need for social connections. And just like the Prophet ﷺ said, your family has a right over you, your guest has a right over you, yourself has a right over you. So you fast, you break your fast, you pray, you sleep, right? So there's this kind of balance in our everyday affairs. And it kind of integrates all of our faculties into that. So a holistic approach means that you kind of attend to all of these different realms, and you don't neglect one over the other. Because if you just focus on one and you neglect the others, it's just going to become a band-aid or a pacifier, right? You're overlooking your entire complexity and the intricacy of what makes you a human being. And one approach that I've talked about a lot on the podcast and that has been helpful to me and to so many brothers and sisters on this journey, whether we deal with same-sex attractions or not, whatever problems we deal with in life, having this holistic approach that is the bio-psycho-social-spiritual approach. Because it basically breaks it down for you. When we talk about bio, it basically means your physical body. So you take care of yourself with the healthy food that you eat, your sleep, your movement, your breathing. That is your body, and it has a right over you. The psycho component means your mind and the heart, right? So that means practicing mindfulness, being grounded in the present moment, practicing self-compassion, seeking proper therapy and support, learning what triggers you emotionally or sexually, responding to them in healthy ways, understanding those shame narratives and the mental distortions you may have,
and rewriting that narrative. So that's all part of the psych component. And then the social component, which, as we've mentioned, is a very important component as well, the idea that I need to form healthy platonic friendships. I need to seek social support. And for people who struggle with same-sex attractions, it's one of the toughest things to do, but it is the most necessary, one of the most necessary, to find proper mentors who can actually fill those needs and give us mentorship and guidance. That is very important. And then last but not least, which is very important as well, that spiritual component, the idea that I need to cultivate a close relationship with Allah. A lot of us who struggle with this test, we have a negative perception about Allah. We have a lot of wounds when it comes to the divine that have been brought up, brought by the, you know, the negative upbringing or the negative cultural slash religious discourse and what have you. We need to correct that, right? And it also follows to practice tazkiyah and purification of the heart and to get in touch with nature because we've lost that connection as well. So to kind of understand that we're connecting with something that is much larger than ourselves. And that becomes a holistic approach to helping us individually and as communities. That is just one part of the equation. The second part of the equation is what we can do as communities. So whether you're a parent or you're a family member or you're a friend or you're a teacher or imam or professional in any field, we can all pitch in and work together because we need to spread our own narrative, right? And the first step to be able to do that is we need to educate ourselves on these topics and to raise awareness on them. And that has been the whole goal behind A Way Beyond the Rainbow podcast from day one, which is to deconstruct all of these topics over five seasons to give them to an audience who needs to learn them from scratch, from A to Z, to understand them, and to try to implement them in their daily lives. And it's not just for people who struggle with this,
but also for their family members and their teachers and imams and so on. And once we have that, we start to learn more. And I like to use the analogy of stepping down from your ivory towers because we're sick and tired of people judging us from their ivory towers and preaching. We would appreciate if they stepped down and they have conversations with us and they gain more first-hand knowledge and understanding because if they approach the topic from a place of love and curiosity, the entire outlook changes and they start to see the pain that is lurking underneath the surface and how deep down underneath all of these masks, there is a human being who is craving love and attention and connection and guidance and belonging. All of this is human. We cannot fight fire with fire. And this is what I tell people. Using the same old rhetoric of exclusion and black or white thinking has driven us away in the first place. And fighting leads to more fighting. And hurt people end up hurting more people. And if we really look closely and we try to put our ego on the side and really look with an open heart and open mind, with an eye of love, we realize that it's not about fighting. It's actually about a situation of lack of love versus availability of love. So when you're talking about spouses fighting or neighbors fighting or religions fighting or ideologies clashing or races or nations or what have you, it all boils down to this, which is, do I feel loved and accepted and cared for? Do I feel connected and safe? Or do I feel rejected or disconnected? That's really it. If we really understand the crux of the matter and we approach this from a place of love and compassion, the entire paradigm changes. And so if we approach this from that perspective, if you have a child or a sibling or a parent who's struggling with this or if you have a friend or a colleague at work, I encourage you to step into their world and see how you can help them. Maybe befriend them and have a meal with them
or take an interest in their lives and try to find a genuine connection with them. I promise you, you will find someone who is longing for that deep connection with you. And none of this compromises your value system or your deen or your morals. You're not accepting a lifestyle by doing that if that person is living that lifestyle. It just means that you recognize their humanity and you're fulfilling your duty as a Muslim who is supposed to be a source of light and mercy for all of mankind. And that in and of itself is something that we can do and it starts at the individual level. And at the communal level, I think we can take a step further, which is what you are doing, mashaAllah, in your podcast, JazakAllah khair. And in the Institute at large and in other institutes that are trying to pick up this work, that we ought to have our own media outlets through audiovisuals and websites and podcasts and radio programs and what have you, publications and stuff to kind of correct misconceptions and raise awareness and offer God-conscious support and guidance to people who need it, right? To also train imams and community leaders and scholars in deconstructing all of these shubuhat and the revisionist arguments that Mubeen has spoken on your podcast about and has written a lot about and to give them resources to help them in their communities and their congregations as well. And it would be wonderful if those same scholars and imams and teachers would actually learn and understand what we've spoken about today in terms of shame and detachment and the needs for connection and belonging. Because once they understand that, the whole narrative changes. It changes from one of alienation and black and white thinking to one of empathy and compassion and curiosity and actually inviting people to be able to help them, you know? And we know that a lot of teachers and educators are under fire nowadays because they're in public schools, for example. They have to teach things that are not in line with their value systems. We need to help them at that.
That is becoming more and more challenging. And also therapists. We need to have our own qualified therapists and healthcare workers and counseling centers to provide proper counseling and therapy and guidance without caving into outside pressures and to actually work around any laws that impose any fines or delicensing of professionals if anything that we do is deemed non-gay affirmative. So my idea is, to keep this short, whatever you do, wherever you may work, whoever you may be, we can all work together to create safe spaces at our homes, at our mosques, at our workplaces, that are in line with our beliefs and value systems. We hold on to our values. We stand our ground, regardless of what anyone says or does. But at the same time, we practice compassion and respect and mercy. And we try to live as God-consciously as we can, keeping Allah front and center. You know, it starts with us as individuals in our own hearts, with our own minds and with our own actions. And it is up to us to go back to the example of the Prophet ﷺ, to go back to our fitrah, conscious masculinity, to go back to divine revelation and to implement that in our daily lives. And so it's basically about knowledge and application. And once we have that, we reach out and we listen to others, we love them, and we help them see the light at the end of the tunnel while keeping Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala front and center. And with that, you've done yourself a revolution, I would say. Masha'Allah. Well, that's very well said and very thorough. And I think that we should leave it at that. Brother Waheed, it was a pleasure to have this conversation with you today. Those watching, definitely check out, familiarize yourself, educate yourself in more detail with Beyond the Rainbow podcast, and keep up the good work. Jazakum Allah khairan. Thank you so much for this opportunity. And may Allah bless you and accept from you all of this wonderful work that you're doing.
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