Welcome back to Yaqeen Institute's live stream every Thursday night 9 p.m. Eastern Time. Let us know, hit us up, a very very important and exciting guest to discuss with us some very important things. As has been the case for the past several weeks, we're still thinking and praying and feeling for Ghazna. The ground has resumed. Temporary ceasefire or pause, whatever you want to call it, was allowed to expire and we've been flooded with more and more horrific images and videos. Some of the individuals that many of us have come to know personally and love have been, Rifat was one of them, along with many others. We've got, today's gonna be a little bit different. Normally, I take the first segment of the program to interact a bit. Of course, welcome everybody. From everywhere across the world, we have Mashallah Salih. But we're going, we have such a specialist tonight that we want to maximize our time with him. So, we're going to start right away and we have a very very important topic to talk about, which is about the leadership that is required from us. The characteristics of how are we going to basically chart our way forward. A lot of time we pay attention to the systems, but we neglect the individual. And if we see, I think, and the doctor, Dr. Tarek, who is our guest, Dr. Tarek Swayedan, will give more information, of course, and about this point. But if you think about the seerah of the Prophet, salallahu alayhi wa sallam, that one thing that he was, was a builder of people. And
someone could argue, spent in Mecca, was a period where the Prophet, alayhi salatu wa salam, was building people, was helping to construct and constitute the qualities and develop and cultivate the qualities within people that they would need for the way forward. So as we think about our role in everything and where we go forward from here, how do we sort of chart a path and help our brothers and sisters and beyond. We can't neglect the personal qualities that we need, the fact that every movement needs leadership, and what's that leadership going to look like and how is it going to play out. So without further ado, let's welcome our guest onto the program today. We have Dr. Tarek Swayedan, and a very illustrious career, very, very well known throughout the world. He's the CEO and owner of Gulf Innovation Group in Kuwait. Previously, he was a general manager of Risada Satellite Television. That's one of the top television channels in the Middle East. He's got his PhD from the University of Oklahoma. He spent 20 years living in the United States. And he's been recognized as one of the most popular Islamic speakers in the Arab world. He was one of the 500 most influential Muslims of 2022. He's authored over a hundred books on Islam and history. His focus is in the Siraa, as well as leadership and strategic management. Part of that has resulted in training over a hundred thousand students in management and leadership, and he's established five schools in, five American and Canadian schools. On social media, he's got a presence of over 18 million followers on Facebook and Twitter. And we don't say that because the truth is judged by popularity, but just to demonstrate that that Dr. Tarek is somebody whose work has received wide recognition from a great amount of people, and we sure appreciate his presence with us tonight.
So we'll bring him on. And welcome to the program, Dr. Tarek. He's still backstage. We're going to just take a minute to get things sorted out here. He's calling in from Kuwait. So sometimes when we have, there we go. I'm sorry that you started your program late, but we just prayed Fajr here. So we have very, very important, I've been reflecting the past few weeks because I've gone to some demonstrations. I went to the National March on Washington, D.C., which was, some estimates said it was attended by over 300,000 people. I've gone to local marches in the various cities sort of in my locality that were smaller. Some of them were organized by Masajid. Some of them were not. Some of them were organized by secular groups. So one of the things that I wanted to talk and have you speak to today was the sort of divide between secular and religious activism. And then maybe we'll talk about leadership within the sort of social movements and how to really create an impactful change, something that I know, especially our young people will benefit from greatly. So the first topic, talking about secular activism versus religious activism, there's a sense in America, I'll speak from my own experience, I'm not really sure about how things are overseas, but there's a sense that if you want to be active to speak up for the Palestinian issue, that you almost have to play into secular politics or that the secular organizations are doing much, much more than religious organizations and Masajid.
I wanted to, and so therefore the thing is that young people are then pulled into more secular spaces and they feel often that they have to leave their Islamic identity behind them. I wanted to ask you to speak to this. Why do you think are the reasons behind this sort of situation? Baradar, thank you for inviting me and it's an honor and pleasure to be with your audience. Our hearts and minds have been occupied with the situation in Palestine. I have been very active in this and of course, as you know, in our countries, because of the political situation here, the freedom of speech is not as much as you have in the United States and that caused me a lot of trouble. But again, this is part of activism, is that you take the challenge and you receive the pressure and you overcome the pressures and continue. The situation of activism in the Middle East here is probably the opposite of what you're mentioning there. We don't almost see any secular movement that is active anymore. It's only Islamists that are really, really active. Rarely, rarely we have heard about any secular organization that has any influence in any issue almost. So it is not a matter of that secular is better or more active or they work harder. I don't think that is the situation as much as who is behind it and how do they do it. Now to answer your question, let me switch a little bit and from that we will understand. What is the difference between
Islamic leadership and leadership in general? What is the difference? And when I ask my students this question, many of them, they would say it's the same thing. At the end of the day, it's leadership. No, it's not. To understand this, we have to understand what is Islam in a general sense. Islam is three things. There is the faith, there is the ethics, and there are the laws. These three things comprise Islam. And if we want to call anything Islamic, then it has to abide by these three things. So that is the difference between Islamic leadership and leadership. So in leadership, their goal is not Allah. So the faith is not there. So that is a major difference. The niyyah is what changes everything. And the Prophet said, it is only counted by what is your intention behind it. So that is a major difference. The other major difference is ethics. We have certain ethics that the Prophet have set for us and we have to abide by them. So to be an Islamic leader or an ethical or an Islamic activist, then you have to abide by the ethics of Islam. And the third thing is the Islamic laws. And there are not many here. By the way, it has been counted that laws in Islam or laws in the Quran comprise only 3% of the Quran. But there are laws that we have to abide by. For example, if we have a meeting for activism, you cannot serve alcohol. So that is just a simple example. So if you abide by these three,
then you are an Islamic leader. Now leadership itself, there is no difference. So this goes the same way with activism. The tools and the methods of activism, both ways, whether it is an Islamic activism or secular, it is the same. And I have worked with political organizations when I was in Washington, D.C. I worked in politics for two years there. And I worked with the White House and the Congress, etc. But the difference between us is not the tools or not the methods. It is the application of these three things in everything that we do. So this is how I see the difference. As a matter of fact, because of these three things, we can do activism in a better way and in a more consistent way. And our personal gains are not there. Many people would use activism to take a share of whatever they collect, for example, of donations for themselves. We don't do that in Islamic activism. So again, I think also at the same time, as you mentioned, that if secular activism is more effective than Islamic activism, then you should only need to learn the methods and the tools that they are using. In that case, you will overcome and exceed what they do. I see. Thank you very much. So I'm really glad that you mentioned the split between maybe North American activism and activism in the Arab world. Those of us who are engaged heavily with the Palestinian cause and who are bilingual and engage and consume media from both notice a very large divide. The chants in English are
very different from the chants in Arabic. The language that's employed often in protests and demonstrations in the Western world, in English, are very different from the types of things you have more prayers, you have more mention of Allah, you have, you know, much more religious language. And it seems like religious commitment from people who are championing the Palestinian cause in the Arab world and beyond. There's a perception, there's a perception that within the youth in America and North America that are passionate about the Palestinian cause, that the traditional Islamic way is not really getting it done. Now, you mentioned about techniques like, okay, well, if there's something that the secular activists are doing that the religious or traditional ones aren't, then that should be a pretty straightforward solution. It's just sort of educate yourself about the tactics and then apply them. But are there any other reasons why maybe religious activism or Islamic activism might be perceived as inadequate, that is sort of driving maybe some of the youth to being frustrated? Definitely. Before I go into that, there has been a survey by Gallup in the Arab world, and in general, in the masses, religion is really part of our daily life. For example, in Kuwait, a simple question was asked, do you consider yourself religious? And in Kuwait, for example, the answer was 84% said yes. In other countries, it reached 99%.
So, we don't see this divide. I mean, when we go into demonstrations, protests, et cetera, and we have our slogans, et cetera, we don't think the same way that the Muslim youth in the West do, because shouting in the name of Allah and for the cause of Allah and the jihad and the shahada, it's just normal for us. I think this is something that your youth has to take into account, because sometimes the laws would not allow it. For example, for us to say from the river to the sea is something that is very normal, and we have no question about it. When we shout it, you will not be judged, because that is the normal way that we think and see. In the West, you might be persecuted for that, for example. So, I think your youth are very smart, and I have trained a lot of young generation from America, Canada, Australia, and the West, and I see a huge difference, frankly, between our youth and the Muslim youth from the West, and let me say something about this. After training so many people, the best are the youth that come from the West. They know the tools better, the techniques, the laws, they know management much better, so they have taken the best of two worlds and put them together, and that brings them into a higher level of commitment and achievement.
But at the same time, you are governed by certain laws that we are not governed by, and they should be careful about it. For example, I have been into trouble even here, because I was not careful about just certain words. So, my advice is be careful, because continuity is much more important than shouting one slogan, and use, as we mentioned, the techniques of the West to do activism. For example, let's give an example here of, say, the Red Crescent compared to the Red Cross. So, we have the Red Crescent here in Kuwait, in many Muslim countries, and they are in charge of the official donations of Kuwait to transfer them to Palestine. I have been, when I was in the West, I established several organizations, and one of them is a charity and a relief organization, and I have worked with the Red Cross. Their techniques are amazing, really amazing, and I learned a lot from them, and I would advise strongly that we continue to learn, especially the brothers and sisters in the West, learn from these people. I mean, the Red Cross is able to mobilize 30,000 volunteers within 24 hours. We don't know how to do that. So, these are techniques and methods and using management and leadership to channel it to our cause. So, you have a big advantage. I don't see,
I see that we are in the disadvantage, not you. Right, subhanAllah, mashaAllah. Yeah, no, I've watched several of your interviews, mashaAllah, at this point, and I do appreciate that point. It's also my observation. I think that, you know, there's some interesting, one of the things that I notice about the youth and the young generation, those that are younger than me at least, is that they don't have sort of the post-9-11 mentality of trying to hide away their Islamic identity. I've actually heard several of them complain that if they step into a space of other, say, non-Muslims, people who are protesting for the Palestinian cause, they'll actually speak out and complain if they feel like their Islamic identity is being erased. Why did you invite us for a protest? I've heard this, for example, and it's, we have to pray Dhuhr, and you didn't schedule into the schedule of the day's events a time to pray Dhuhr. So, now we have just people randomly sort of doing it. So, I think that's tremendously encouraging that the young people are, they want to, they have the idara, right, they have the techniques from the West when it comes to management and these sorts of things, which, if you go back to Umar ibn Khattab, right, and how innovative he was with his idara as a khalifa, you see this sort of very, very wise and opportunistic, almost an entrepreneurial attitude towards what are the techniques and what can we apply and leverage and what can we use, but the foundation of it, as you said at the very beginning, is the Islamic faith, is the belief, the limits that Allah has set in his law and that the Islamic ethics. I want to comment just quickly. I have written the encyclopedia of Islamic history,
and I have written four books about the khalifa, and I went into the details of Sayyidina Umar ibn Khattab. Sayyidina Umar ibn Khattab is one of the major examples of management in Islam. Many people don't know this, that Umar ibn Khattab did not invent anything, almost. He used the management system of the Persians, and to the surprise of many, the ministries of Umar ibn Khattab, he divided the country into ministries, and these ministries are at that time called diwans. These diwans are all based on Persian management. Not only that, all the books of these ministries are written not in Arabic. They were written in Persian, and that continued all the way to the time of the Umayyads, until they Arabized them. So, we have no problem in using the other people's systems, or methods, or even language to mobilize our work. So, our great example, Umar ibn Khattab, did that. So, this is my advice. Use it. Transfer it to the Muslim world. We really need it, because I've studied the West deeply, and one of the major things that made the West overcome the world is management. It is in every part. You go to running the Ministry of Health, it's management. You go to managing education, it's leadership and management. So, in every part you will see it, and unfortunately, the management systems in many of our countries
are backwards. Now, they are improving a little bit, but in the West, it is very advanced. So, learn it, and use it, and transfer it to us. That's wonderful advice, and one last point I want to get your comment on before transitioning to talking about leadership qualities that our youth need to develop, and that is maybe a bleed over it from what you've brought to our attention about the asymmetry between very good management skills and very poor management skills. Now, I don't think it's a secret, and I'm not trying to embarrass anybody by saying that sometimes, even here in the West, the poorest-run institutions, or some of the poorest-run institutions, unfortunately, are misedged, that they're not managed properly, and they don't have very much capacity. You have somebody who's a religious leader who is expected to do the work of maybe three, four, or five people, and is compensated in a way that he has a very, very humble lifestyle, and then we look at, well, why can't we mobilize people in the way that you're mentioning? Why can't we get a protest of 300,000? And I really studied this national march that I went to in Washington, D.C. I looked at who were the nine organizations that ran it. I read through dozens, probably over a hundred of the organizations that endorsed it, and I'm thinking to myself while I was studying how this thing came together with the buses and chartering buses and the media campaign, why can't we do something similar? Why can't the Muslims within the religious organizations do something similar? And I couldn't help but reflect on the way in which our masajid are run, and unfortunately, many of the religious organizations that we have. I'm not sure if there's a comment or a question, but
when it comes to the youth, and then they see, for example, this is what is my concern, is that when the youth, they go to this march, and they see how well run it is, and it was done all by organizations that have nothing to do with the traditional masajid, and then they try to go to their masajid, and things are very dysfunctional, and they feel disempowered, and they feel like they don't have a voice, or they're not able to change things. I'm very afraid that those youth are going to associate those things with Islam itself, and then it will impact their, they're going to have a bad experience, and it will carry over. Could you maybe comment on that phenomenon? Yes, I know of the march that happened in Washington, D.C., because my family was there, and they participated in that, so they told me a lot about it, but not only that. I know some of the organizers in the march, and management is a skill that is not born with you. It is a skill that you learn. It is a skill that you learn from people who are experts in that field. You cannot learn it from religious books. It is not there. Yes, there have been some writings of Islamic scholars about management, but again, this is only touching the surface of management, not the depth of management. Why are our masajids not run well? Because they have not been trained to run well. How many Muslim imams know how to write a strategic plan, or an operational plan, or a balanced scorecard, or say, for example, a training program for the
youth, etc., etc. There are skills that we use. For example, you have meetings. Everyone has meetings, but we have methods now in management. I am not exaggerating. Within one-fourth of the time, we can achieve four times the results. It is not something that I invented. Take, for example, I teach creativity, and we encourage our youth, and we encourage our audience to be very creative, but that is not enough. You have to teach them how to be creative, and how to be creative. There is a system. There are seven steps. You follow them, you become creative. Now, if you don't know these seven steps, you will not be creative. So, of course, there are exceptions, but that is the exemption. So, again, I would advise strongly that our imams, our leaders of the masajid, our next generation, to learn this. It's available in universities in the West. It's available in training programs. It is available by versa today. For example, I'm going to teach, inshallah, in January, a full seminar to the leadership of Islamic workers in Australia, and I will do it in English. So, again, why don't they do it? Because they don't know it. How do we solve that? By teaching them and training them on that. And especially now, alhamdulillah, we have many young leaders like
yourself that have to take the torch and do it. This is a false beard. I am 70 now, and it is time that we transfer the torch to someone else to carry it. And we can teach you how to do it. We have done it. Alhamdulillah, I have established in my life 98 organizations. I've written 125 books. 60% of them are on management and leadership, and so on. So, we can teach easily. We know how to do it. And you can learn it also even easier, because we have learned it from the West, and you are living in the West. You can learn directly from the scholars in the West. Sure. No, that's fantastic. So, one of the things I think that you're emphasizing that I want the viewers to make sure that they register and appreciate is that we have to have a cultural shift even within our own masajid and our own institutions. That we can't just abandon them as just, oh, it's a place that you open the key and then you go and you pray and then you go home. It needs to be a place where these things are taught. And the Prophet ﷺ, he said, Allah has decreed excellence in everything that you do. And subhanAllah, if we can't establish excellence in the masajid, we can't. I go back to my memories. The first seminar I ever taught on management was in the masjid in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And I taught them a full seminar on management. And that was in 1986.
So, it can be done and it was done in masajids. And I would encourage that we, again, as you mentioned, masajids are not only to pray and get out. The masjid should be an institution that would do the activism in the whole community around it. Yes. And as one of our commenters mentioned, Susu, he said that this is why we need to also diversify our careers within the community. Unfortunately, some people are only focused on medicine or engineering, which is great. But we also need people to learn these skills to help our ummah, the masajid, run trainings and to have everybody sort of raise the bar. Well, my advice, no matter what your specialty is, you should do management. Because whatever you do, you will need management. Either for your personal projects or even if you are a doctor and one day you have to manage a hospital. Now, if you manage a hospital, then it's 90% management and 10% medicine. So, learn it early on. So, when the time comes that you would need it, you'll be ready for it. That's great advice. And frankly, my first degree is in political theory. My second is in sharia. And I never learned anything about leadership and management until I came back to the States. I can teach you, I can teach you. Of course, I would love it. I also had a shaykh tell me, pull me aside and said, listen, you really need to pay attention to this. You need to start reading books. Here's some books on leadership and management. And even in your marriage, even with your children, even with, you know, just relationships in general, it was something that was not on my radar,
but something that I continue to benefit a lot from. So, let's pivot to the second line of question. We want to talk about the actual qualities of leadership, especially with the youth. Many of our youth are listening right now. Maybe they want to do something. They're tired of what's going on in our country, supporting maybe perhaps our country in the United States is the most responsible for what's going on in Gaza and Palestine. They want to do something about it. They have ideas even, but maybe they lack certain qualities that are needed to lead a movement or just whatever they want to do. What are some of the most important, essential qualities that they're going to need to develop if they want to be a leader? Before that, we have to answer a question. Are you born a leader or are you made into becoming a leader? And that question has been answered in so many different ways, and I prefer this answer, that there are leaders who are born. And one example for that is the Prophet, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, when he appointed Usama to lead the last army before his death, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. Usama at that time was 17 years and a half, and this appointment did not go without objection. The army objected to this appointment, and the first one to object was Umar ibn al-Khattab, and he said his famous words, he appointed a boy to lead us. And that spread like fire, and almost all the army started to say the same thing. I mean, we are going to face the second greatest
power in the whole world, the Romans, and we are led by a boy. So that was a very dangerous appointment. The Prophet, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, was sick at that time, and these words did not reach him until three days, just three days before his death. So he made a speech, and in the speech he said many things. In the speech, one of the things that he said, he objected to the leadership of Usama. I swear by Allah that he is born into a leader, like his father was born into a leader. So this is a very direct, clear answer, that there are people who are born leaders. Amr ibn al-As was born into a leader. Sayyiduna Umar ibn al-Khattab says about Amr ibn al-As, Abu Abdullah, Amr ibn al-As, should not walk on this earth as a follower. He should always be a leader. So there are people who are born leaders, but the percentage is between one and two percent only. Now, most people are not born into leaders, and we can train them to become leaders. So leadership, either you have it or you can get it. Now, how do you become a leader if you are not born into a leader? If you are not, then there are several approaches. And this is, I'm talking scientifically, speaking here. One of the major approaches is, goes back to your questions,
our question, what are the qualities of a leader? We specify them, we train our young generation on these qualities, and then they become leaders. So that is one approach, but that is not the only approach. There is another approach, and that is, forget about qualities. Total, think about laws of leadership. There are laws of leadership. If you know the laws and you know how to apply them, then you will become a leader. So, for example, going back to the first approach, what are the qualities? Now, this question has been answered almost by all scholars of leadership, and I counted 225 qualities of leadership. Now, are they all at the same level of importance? And this is another question that was answered by full research, great research, done by Causes and Posner. And for your audience to read the reference to that, it is written in their book, The Leadership Challenge, by Causes and Posner, available. And they have done research, trying to answer your question, what are the qualities of a leader that people would follow willingly? And this research, the first results were published after 27 years of research. And they have surveyed more than a million and a half people in all continents. And they specified five, five major qualities. So again, there are a lot that you can learn in leadership. There are many, many qualities that you need to be trained on, but
try to master these five. The first one is integrity. And this is not an Islamic research. And they asked me, well, this is really nice. Integrity, what is it? So they went into the depth of it. And they answered it by saying, being trustworthy, truth-telling. As the Prophet, salallahu alayhi wa sallam, was named before even he was given the message. So try to live with integrity. And the integrity is simple. Don't say something and do something else. Simple. So that is the first thing. Be a role model. The second one is have a vision. Have a vision. Try to know for yourself and for those that you're leading, what do you want to achieve? Long term, not short term. So that is a major thing that you should look into. The third one is motivation. A leader should know how to motivate the followers. And this is not simple. It is not just thanking them and encouraging them. It goes much, much deeper than that. Motivation is a system. Meaning that I would study those that I would like to motivate. And then I would know that this person is motivated by words. While this person is only motivated by money. And this one is motivated by giving a chance of leadership, etc. So we say it
in a different way. We say every person has a key. So motivation is knowing which key to use. So that is the third thing that you should know. The fourth thing is being competent. Being competent. Which means that you should learn management. You should know how to manage them. So a leader needs to learn management. And finally, the fifth quality that they looked into is being clever, being smart. And again, it is not only your IQ that is part of it. But it is not only your IQ. Being smart is also a system that you can learn and apply. And you know how to use this method at this moment. And I would advise strongly that everyone would learn decision making. Decision making. And many people think they know decision making. But this is very superficial. But I would advise that they go into the depth of it. And there are methods for decision making. We have Minimax, Maximax, Bayes, Butterfly, etc. So if you don't know these systems, then you would just do it by judging on your experience. Which is good, but not enough. But knowing these methods will make my mistakes much less. There is no way that I can 100% secure a good decision. But I can minimize the mistakes. So these are the major five qualities that I would advise that you focus on. Excellent. Now, you mentioned that these, even though this research is done by non-Muslims, that it pretty much squares with everything in the Islamic tradition. You are somebody who is an expert on the seerah. Can you give us some examples from the seerah
where the Prophet ﷺ demonstrated these qualities that these non-Muslim researchers are saying, yes, you have to have it to be a good leader. This would need a whole new session, Yafi. I've written a big book, in two volumes, 900 pages, on just answering this question. And that is the leadership of the Prophet ﷺ. So I call it prophetic leadership. And what I did is that I took the system of leadership. There is a system. How do we do it, Yafi? It's very simple. First of all, we discover leaders, or we discover those who are potential leaders. And there's a full system for that. And then we educate them before we train them. So we teach them the behavior of leaders. And then we train them to be leaders. And then we train them on specialties, like Khadim Walid on military, Abdullah ibn Mas'ud on knowledge and being a religious leader, and so on. And then we have to do this through an atmosphere of leadership. You know, every step of this has details. And in every detail, Yafi, in every detail, I'm not talking about the major ideas, in every detail, the Prophet ﷺ applied them. So when, for example, you're talking about discovering leaders, he did that a lot, a lot, ﷺ. Now, of course, for muhajireen, it was easy,
because he spent 13 years with them before they started any jihad, any building a state, etc. So he was in daily touch with them, and he knows them. But it is for al-Ansar that the Prophet ﷺ, you can see it very clearly. For example, one of the tribes of the al-Ansar, they had many leaders. And they almost decided on one of the leaders. Now, in the first meeting that the Prophet ﷺ met with them when they embraced Islam, he said, man sayyidukum? Who is your leader? They said, so-and-so. He said, no, let so-and-so lead you. And he chose the youngest among them to lead them. Now, this is in the first meeting. He knows. Yakhir, we have signs. We know. I mean, after training so many people, writing, I wrote nine books just on leadership. Yakhir, wallahi, we know. Just half an hour, only half an hour, we would know that this person has in him or her what it takes to be a leader. Of course, there are people that we would need to spend more time with. But those who have this quality, we can see it very quickly. The Prophet ﷺ saw it. Now, did he train them to be leaders? Of course, of course. Let me give you a very clear example. You know, Seerah, also, and many of your audience know that Sayyiduna Khalid ibn al-Walid, radiyallahu anhu, made mistakes, made major mistakes. And in one of the major mistakes,
he killed some Muslims by mistake. And when that was discovered, what happened after that? Many people say that the Prophet ﷺ took the hand of Umar, of Khalid, raised it, and he said, I swear by Allah that I have nothing to do with this mistake of Khalid. But what happened after that? Khalid continued to be a leader, continued to be appointed, even with his major mistake. We have a law now in leadership that if you start punishing your people, if they do mistakes, then you will have no one next to you. What you should punish is not mistakes. What you should punish is repeating the same mistake after you told them that this is a mistake. Then that is punishable. So that is, for example, one of the laws applied to a certain person. Now, let's take the example of Khalid ibn al-Walid again and take the example of Abu Dharr, radiyallahu anhu. Abu Dharr was the fifth man to embrace Islam. In the first year of the message, not the year of hijrah, the first year of the message, he was the fifth man to embrace Islam. He was never appointed in any position. Take Khalid ibn al-Walid and Amr ibn al-As. They embraced Islam on the seventh year of hijrah. Not the seventh year of Islam, the seventh year of hijrah, which is 20 years after Khalid, after Abu Dharr. Both of them, both Khalid ibn al-Walid and Amr ibn al-As
were appointed to lead only four months or five months after they embraced Islam. Now, let's apply this to Islamic organizations. Take, for example, your masjid or any Islamic movement. I always challenge my friends in the Islamic movement. I say, none of you apply sunnah because you have conditions that to be one of our leaders, they must be with us 15 years or whatever. How many among you would be willing to let a young man or woman who is only four months into Islam and let them be your leader? The Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam did that. While Abu Dharr radiallahu anhu was very sincere and he came to the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam and he said, O Prophet of Allah, you gave appointments to everyone. I want to serve. I want to get the reward like them. So give me any appointment. The Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said, no. You are too weak to be a leader. So being sincere and by the way, being knowledgeable, Abu Dharr was very knowledgeable. Sayyidina Ali says about Abu Dharr, Abu Dharr is a bad, full of knowledge. But at the same time, he was never appointed a leader. So leadership is not being sincere. Leadership is not being knowledgeable. It's not getting a degree. So these are, for example, some of the things that we judge by that is irrelevant to leadership. And we can see it from management point of view and we can see it from the prophetic point of view. Our approach, our vision of leadership and how to choose them, how to appoint them
has to switch and understand it from scientific point of view and understand it even from prophetic point of view. Tada. MashaAllah. Excellent points and fantastic examples. I'm sure all of our viewers appreciate it a lot. Let's imagine a scenario where we have a young person who's passionate and they want to start a movement. They want to start something and affect change. How would you advise them? Where do they start? Some people, they get overwhelmed at where to start. How should they go about starting a movement for change? And then maybe once they're up and running, how do they keep people engaged, that motivation that you talked about? That's a huge question. Okay, let's switch a little bit. Let me start with this is how I teach it. What is the difference between planning and change? So looking at both, we would see that we start with studying the present situation. Where are we now? And we have to define our vision. Where do we want to go? And then we have to set the system and the plan. How do we move from here to there? So up until now, what I'm describing is planning. And change has the same elements. The present, the future, and the plan. But change has a fourth element that planning doesn't have. And that is resistance. Whenever you try to apply change, then you should expect resistance.
Now resistance is a science. And this science has been studied deeply. And there are only 20 methods that any resistance would use. Whether you apply it within an Islamic institution or state or even the mafia. It's only the same 20. So to really be able to do change, you must master change. And then you should master the knowledge of resistance. How are they going to approach it? And then we have another science called how do you resist the resistance? And there are 60 laws that are applied there. So again, you see we have a system of resistance. Now, there are equations. And again, because of my background as an engineer, we put engineering into everything. So let me help your audience, the young generation who are very motivated, the future leaders. Let me give you one of the major equations of change. To apply change, there are three things that you should master. Number one, is there enough pain? If there is not enough pain, people will not move. People will not change. So that is why, for example, it is much easier to have change in a poor country than a rich country. Because there is a lot of pain there.
It is much easier to have change in a dictatorship than having it in a democracy. Because in dictatorships, you have more pain. So what is the level of pain? Now, if there is not enough pain, we can move people to understand that they should see pain. They should embrace pain. Because pain is good. I mean, just imagine your body not feeling anything. Then you will be in trouble. So that is the first thing. The second thing is you should master vision. What is your vision? Where do you want to move? Change is moving people towards a goal. What is that goal? So if you don't know it, and you don't know how to relate it to others, then they will not move with you. The third thing that many people miss is what we call the first steps. So, for example, you want to do change in your masjid. So there is pain that it has not run well, etc. And you have a vision of what you want them to do. So will you be successful? No. Until you master the third part. And that is the F. And the F here is the first steps. And this is very specific. What are you going to do in the first 18 months? If you don't master the first 18 months, then change will fail. So, for example, let's take the Arab Spring. In Egypt, for example, there was a lot of pain. They moved. And they had a vision, by the way. And I've seen it. It's written. Very well written.
But they did not master the first steps. So, to me, while I was watching this revolution happening, I knew that it would not succeed. Because it did not meet the major equation of change. And that is one of nine major equations. So this is my advice. If you want to lead change, then you should study the science of change. And understand how to take it from concepts into application. No, that's excellent advice. Very eye-opening. And I think very new for a lot of people who are watching. Definitely, it's motivating me to get some of your books. Now I'm translating them, inshallah. Inshallah. Some are available on Amazon and others. So, sometimes one thing that everything you've said has sort of drawn my attention to is that not all actions are as impactful as others. And one thing I think that we struggle with when it comes to, let's say, activism for Palestine and the Palestinian cause, we've got a lot of pain. We even have a vision. Maybe this is first steps, maybe it's not. But I feel like the tactics that we use sometimes, or the specific actions, are more about expression than they are about impact. Sometimes. Can you talk to us about how to channel the energy, how to channel the pain, and how to select from the different actions that you could potentially choose, how to think through which ones are really going to have the most impact and help your cause the most?
Yeah, again, the way I would look at anything is, do we have a system? It is not enough to have the motivation. It is not enough to be sincere. Do you have the system? And the system starts with the understanding. What do you want to do? Many of our young generation, they know that they want to do, say, a demonstration. But that is not the goal. That is the method. That is the way. And the question, a very simple question, is this the best method? Did you study that? Did you even think about it? Is that the best way to achieve it? Maybe lobbying is much better than doing a demonstration, for example. Maybe the better way, the much better way, for example, is to focus for 20 years on wealth, become very rich, and then use this money to move the media and the lobby like the Zionists are doing. So why did you choose demonstrations? Demonstrations, by the way, are the easiest method because they are very short term. They diffuse the heat in our hearts. And then we go back and we feel that we did something. What is the impact? In management, there are certain criteria. For example, now we teach KPIs, the key performance indicators.
And, for example, if we go to your masjid or any masjid or any organization, then they would say, OK, we should, our KPIs, we should at least have weekly activity, one major activity every year, etc. So they measure it by activities. All of this, until now, is performance. It is not effectiveness. It is performance. Now, today in management, we are moving away from KPIs. Into KEIs, which is key effectiveness indicators. So the question is, if you did 10 demonstrations, did that change anything? Did it impact anything? What is your effectiveness behind it? So you have to ask yourself a question. What do you want to achieve out of these demonstrations? Do you want to change the vote in the Congress? Did that happen? If that did not happen, then your impact did not happen. And so on. So what I see, even in the Islamic world, and I am in the leadership of many of my Muslim movements, what I see is a huge emphasis on what to do. But there is little emphasis on where do we want to go? What do we want to achieve? So we have a lot of activities, even with our young generation. We have daily prayers and weekly lessons, and maybe one trip a year, etc. But did that change anything? What did you want?
What do you want to achieve out of it? So these simple questions have to be answered. So this is my advice to the young generation. Learn this. And even if you don't learn it, just sit down and think about it. What do you want to achieve? And try to answer this question in a measurable way. And then do whatever you want to do. But always ask yourself the question, did it achieve my measurable goal? Then this is the impact. So the impact is not a mystery. It is something that we can plan for and we can apply. I really appreciate the systematic way in which you are bringing systematic thinking. That was actually one of the things that attracted me to study fiqh and sharia, because the books of fiqh and musul are so systematic. And that's one of the major takeaways I have from everything you shared with us today, that our thinking and our action and our planning has to be more systematic. We have to actually think about these things carefully. And determine a course of action that makes sense. And realize that there are several available actions, choices, tools at our disposal. And you almost need to unfurl them in a sequence that's going to actually have the desired effect. Last week I was at Columbia University and I was talking to some of the students there. And they had a situation where their university had disbanded some of the student groups who were outspoken on the Palestinian issue. And so we were kind of brainstorming and I was, just by chance,
trying to encourage them to consider something similar to what you're saying. I was saying, okay, you've had demonstrations up to this point, but what other sort of actions have you considered or are you willing to do? Is there, what about a tuition strike? What about organizing the teachers to have a walkout? What about a teach-in and education? Just trying to get the brainstorming to think about what are all the different actions that, as you said, are according to our ethics, within the limits of a snap. And now let's look at what are we actually trying to achieve. And which actions actually help serve our goals the best. I think that the whole, at least I can speak for North America, I think that the entire pro-Palestinian or the Palestinian cause, we really need to have this type of thinking. I think that it really, and we do have a limited amount of time. I think that there is urgency to it. As you said, the first 18 months, the first steps, we're not going to have this type of pain forever, right? I mean, the type of pain that we've experienced watching the videos, seeing the children, seeing people that we know, our family members, everything that's happening. This is lightning that we have to capture into a bottle. And we have to take advantage of the moment that we have in the most intelligent way. And so I really, really appreciate that. One thing that you mentioned that reminded me, studying the fiqh and also al-fiqh. When I studied that, it was very clear, very clear that Islam teaches us to be systematic. And usool al-fiqh, especially, is the way to build a system. Now, fiqh, for example, and this is one small advice to your audience.
Al-madahib, being Shafi'i, Hanbali, et cetera, you don't have to be. You don't have to be if you have a system, if you know the system. But if you don't have a system, then remember that these madahib were built around a system. And this system is always applied. You cannot, for example, take the words of the companions as law-giving. And in one condition, and in one situation, and in another situation, you refuse it. That's not being systematic. The madahib did that. And they applied it, and that resulted in this system. Now, if you refuse the madahib and don't have a system, then you are very unsystematic. And this is not the way to understand even the laws of Islam. So, really, you can learn it even from usool al-fiqh to be very systematic. Yeah, that's a brilliant point, and very, very important. We're not going to tell you which system, but you have to have a system. Because if you don't have a system, that's actually when your conflict of interest and your hawab start to play with, well, when am I going to apply this principle, and when am I not going to apply this principle? How do I ensure that I'm not applying it in a self-serving way? And that's the whole reason to have a system in the first place. Brilliant point. Is there anything? So, we've reached time. I don't see a ton of questions. Is there any sort of closing remarks, Yashif, that you'd love to leave the audience with today? Again, I want to thank you, first of all, for this opportunity. And I thank your audience that they are patient with us.
But, again, I would really appreciate if the young generation, whatever their specialty is, to learn leadership, to learn management, to learn change management. These sciences are available in the West. Try to learn the Islamic systematic way of thinking. This will give you an eye-opening approach to everything, everything in life. And we really need this in the Islamic world. Barak al-fikm. Thank you so much for your program today. It was an honor and a blessing. And may Allah accept from us. Barak al-fikm. Thank you so much for this invitation. And continue the good work. Barak al-fikm. Inshallah. Thank you so much. As-salamu alaykum. Alaykum as-salamu alaykum. Okay. There you have it, mashallah. So, a lot of inspiring words from Dr. Tariq Swayedan. And I think a very clear message, something to take away when it comes to the work that we can do. Sometimes we get, we just run out of ideas. We have a very poor imagination sometimes for what can we do to help our Ummah, what can we do to help Palestine. We think about the usual things, donating money, you know, sort of raising awareness, calling congressmen, or sort of typical sort of political things. But we forget to build up ourselves. We forget to build ourselves up and give ourselves the skills, strategies, and tools that we will need for the long haul in order to help our brothers and sisters in Palestine. And one of those things includes studying management techniques and sort of everything that Dr. Tariq spoke to. Elevating us. Elevating our levels. Elevating ourselves as individuals, collectively, our institutions, our masajid, our charity organizations. We should really take the charge that the Prophet ﷺ gave us to be people of ihsan.
To try to have, not just to have ihsan in what we put out our effort for the world, but also to construct our institutions and our movements for justice with ihsan as much as possible. So we hope that everybody benefited. I know I certainly did. And we've got a lot of work to do. So without further ado, I'd like to bid everyone farewell for tonight. May Allah accept it from us. And inshaAllah ta'ala we will see you next week. As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.