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S3 E11: Islam and Abortion | DoubleTake
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Abortion is dominating headlines as the United States Supreme Court considers a decision that could lead to it being outlawed in many states. While the political debate is framed as being either pro-life or pro-choice, the Islamic perspective is not so simple.
Is abortion halal or haram, and are there any exceptions? What principles do Muslim scholars use to determine their understanding? How should we be thinking about this issue on an individual and political level?
In this episode, host Mohamad Zaoud talks to Dr. Omar Suleiman and Sr. Hanaa Hasan about the Islamic perspective on abortion and the article Islam and the Abortion Debate.
Episode Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
01:52 Abortion: Halal or Haram?
21:09 The Decision-Making Process
34:57 Roe v. Wade: The Political Debate
46:59 What Islam Brings to the Conversation
51:08 Advice to a 13-Year-Old
53:29 Rapid Fire
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Transcript
This transcript was auto-generated using AI and may contain misspellings. As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah Welcome to a new episode of Double Take, a podcast by Yaqeen Institute about the questions and ideas around Islam and Muslims that give us pause. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. If you like what you hear or want to share feedback, you can do so directly by letting us know through the link in the show notes. Today I had an open discussion with Dr. Omar Suleiman and Sister Hanna Hassan about the Islamic perspective on abortion in light of everything that is going on. Dr. Omar is the founder and president of Yaqeen Institute and the author of the paper Islam and the Abortion Debate. He's back on Double Take for the first time since season 1. Sister Hanna is a fellow at Yaqeen, a researcher in international development and the founder of Qarawiyyin Project, an initiative dedicated to reviving Islamic discourse amongst Muslim women. Enjoy the episode. Dr. Omar, Sister Hanna, As-salamu alaykum and welcome to Double Take. Wa alaykum as-salam. Wa alaykum as-salam wa rahmatullah. Dr. Omar, you wrote an article in March 2017 about Islam and the abortion debate. In this episode, I want to cover how Islam views the issue of abortion and then I'd like some guidance on how to approach the matter politically. I know this is a very big question, but to start out, abortion, is it halal or is it haram?
So, alhamdulillah, as-salatu wa s-salamu alayhi wa s-salam wa ala alihi wa sahbihi wa man wala. So, to ask a question, is it halal or is it haram, obviously, I'd say that you have in our religion multiple categories of halal and haram and what is in between. But certainly, you would start from the position of prohibition and then you have cases in which it becomes acceptable under those circumstances. And so, you start from the position that it is prohibited and then you have exceptions and circumstances in Islam that would permit it. And then you also have some situations in which it would be makruh, in which it would be disliked. So, you start from the position of it being haram, that obviously in Islam, it's not a desirable thing. And when Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala creates something, you want to maintain the rights of all of those creations in a way in which you don't infringe on the other. But then Islam is also a very practical religion, right? So, there are situations and circumstances that arise in which abortion would be allowed under that necessity. Sure. So, the default position is that it is haram and I guess it comes back to the sanctity of life in Islam and protecting life. Yeah, the default position is definitely tahrim, okay, it's prohibition. And I want to emphasize to the audience here that, you know, please read the article because obviously in the podcast, we're not going to have enough time to get through everything. But inshallah ta'ala will actually add some elements that were not present in the article at the time. Obviously, things have, you know, become even much more heated around this debate these days. But, you know, when we talk about the position of Islam, we start with the position of prohibition and then you have these various circumstances that arise at various stages of the pregnancy.
And so an easy way to think about this is that the later in the pregnancy, the more strict the conditions that would allow it become with a default or unanimous prohibition after 120 days in Islam, except in the case of saving the life of the mother. Okay, so anything after 120 days becomes absolutely prohibited, except in the case of saving the mother's life in accordance with all of the schools of thought. And then before 120 days, you have certain situations and circumstances. And there is difference of opinion as to which of those circumstances would allow for an abortion and at what point a person should take that decision. Do you mind talking through some of those legitimate reasons? So you're saying after 120 days, the only reason is to protect the mother's life. But before that, do you mind just talking through the nuance? Sure. So, you know, I think that it's important for people to sort of understand there is a difference of opinion between the 40. And you'll see this in some of the articles. And I will say that I encourage Muslims to read some of the breadth of Islamic scholarship, both classical and contemporary. One of the best articles that I've seen written on the subject is actually written by a dear friend, Dr. Salman Yunus, who wrote an article for Muslim Matter on narrow conceptualizations of abortion. And he talks through some of the details and touches on some things that even I did not get to touch on in my article. But, you know, Sheikh Mohammed al-Shinawi had advised when we were writing this article to look at it backwards, to start from the place of after 120 days and then work backwards to the beginning. Right. So after 120 days, absolute prohibition except to save the mother's life, which is in contradiction of, for example, the Catholic teaching on abortion and the Catholic teaching of abortion,
which is often cited as the main theological, you know, background for the current pro-life position. The potential life is given priority over the stable life, which is the life of the mother and the Islamic conception. The stable life is always given precedence over the potential life being the life of the fetus. Now, before before 120 days, from 40 days to 120 days, serious medical issues, some sort of deformity to the fetus or something that is potentially harmful to the mother's life or in the case of rape or incest or some of these truly dire situations, then according to multiple scholars within the four schools of Sunni thought, there would be room for abortion to be considered. Prior to 40 days, it becomes more lenient, except in the maliki position, which is just historically the strictest position on abortion. You can find that the scholars allow in, you know, in our tradition that there are multiple scholars that allowed for abortions to take place for reasons that are of a less restrictive nature than that between the 40 and the 120 days. The debate becomes both, you know, an analysis of what circumstances constitute a dire need and also at what point does life enter into the womb? And so we start off with saying, well, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, anything that he's created has rights and it is sanctified in being a creation of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. However, when the ruh comes in, when life is conceived, then it takes on another level of sanctity, obviously, right? And is that a 40 days, Dr. Omar? So according to the majority of scholars and some even claimed to consensus in the past, it's 120 days. It was a hadith of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam about the angel blowing the life into the womb at 120 days.
There's another narration which seems to contradict that, which says 40 days. That's a minority opinion within Islamic thought. And, you know, you can argue both ways. You can argue both ways. And it's actually a very interesting debate. I don't want to get too far into the technicalities. Dr. Hatim Al-Hajj, our sheikh, Dr. Hatim Al-Hajj has gone into great depth with this debate. You can look up his works on abortion as well. And he's someone that I consider a reference point on this and that I went to with my own article in this regard. You have to look at the hadith themselves and then you look at the body of opinions and then you look at what was built upon those opinions. So many people look at modern science, for example, and they look at the embryo genesis and the development of the fetus at 40 days and find it to be a more plausible, you know, point at which life comes into the womb. And so we'll go back to that position of 40 days and prefer it on that basis or partly due to that, which is an argument that can be made. The complication with that on the 120 days is that there's a lot that's actually built on the 120 days within the madhab. So, for example, you know, the iddah, I think that a lot of people, for example, would wonder. And I often read about grief and things of that sort and some of the laws surrounding death, and especially in light of the current pandemic, you know, the multiple losses we've had in our community. The iddah of the widow. Why is it four months and 10 days? So we'll go back to the Salaf, Saeed ibn Musayyib, rahimullah and others. They spoke about it. They said, well, that's because of this concept of making sure that the womb does not have life. And so four months comes from that place. And then the 10 days is just to be certain in that regard, because we know the gestational age is different from when a person finds out that they're pregnant. Right. Which is which is a whole nother layer of this. So you've got that right. The ahkam of the iddah, you've got the ahkam of the janaza of the fetus.
When do you pray janaza on the child or on the fetus in the case of a miscarriage? Right. So there's a lot that's been built in the tradition on this 120 day point. As I said, there are scholars on both sides of this issue. I personally take the position of the 120 days. It's the position of my teachers, is the position of the majority of scholars. And sorry, just to be clear, when you say there's different positions, it's it's about the 40 days or the 120 days. Right. Correct. So, yeah, OK. So there are scholars that would argue the 40 day that life is at 40 days, which which would correspond to the gestational age of 52 days. And there is 120 days. I take the position of 120 days as the position of my teachers. And that is a position that I find very compelling. And I think that it's it's important for us to understand that, you know, just like when you're looking at the end of life, reflexive movements of the body and at what point life escapes the body is a very complicated matter. And you cannot simply assign the departure of the ruh to a certain element of death. There is so much that goes into determining whether or not to the best of our read, life has left the body. And so in the womb, reflexive movements versus cognitive movements. At what point the the child, the fetus in the womb is able to determine or is able to control some of their own movements. There is voluntary movement of the limbs. Those are things to be taken into consideration. And it doesn't seem to be enough. And Allah knows best to negate the 120 day position, which is the majority position because of what we see today with our ultrasounds, what we see of movements and the feeling of movements in the womb, while still saying, while still saying that the ideal outcome and circumstances that you preserve the life of the mother and you preserve the life of the fetus.
This does not discard the fetus or just turn it into a lump of flesh that has no meaning and no value. But that's just to say that the entrance of the ruh makes it a far more grave matter. And the majority of the scholars certainly did view that at 120 days with with love and respect and reverence to those scholars that view it at 40 days based on other forms of evidence. JazakAllah khair. I'm going to I'm going to have a go summarizing that for the simple Muslim like myself. So what I'm hearing is that the default position of Islam is that it's prohibited. And the aim of Islam is to protect the sanctity of life. That makes sense. And I've heard that throughout my whole life. There are exceptions to the rule. And we're saying there are two kind of yardsticks, one at 40 days, one at 120 days. Some scholars say at 120 days, that's kind of where the serious restrictions happen. After 120, the only reason that you could have an abortion, correct me if I'm wrong, is to protect the life of the mother. And we'll go kind of deeper into that prior to that, between the 40 days and 120 days, because that's when the ruh, the soul is injected into the body. We're saying it has to be a dire need, things like rape, incest, you know, to protect the mother's life, etc. A serious medical deformity. I'd want to clarify the etc. to not leave it open. Please. If the child, if it's deemed based upon what the doctor can read and what is being looked into, if the child is not going to be able to live a life without being severely limited, restricted, right, in a way that they would not be able to live a normal life, as close to a normal life as possible,
and the parents as well would not be severely burdened by that at that point. So it's not just etc. etc. right. There's like, there's a severe deformity. There's a severe medical issue to where that child would not be able to live a quality life. And that's being determined with with near conclusiveness. Then at that point, yes, that's also something that would be allowed. I mean, there are many questions I'd love to ask, like what if they find out about that medical deformity, say 150 days. But I don't know if we're going to have all that time here. Feel free to answer if you feel it's important. But I just to go back to if you open that can of worms, and I don't want to take from sister Hanna's time because we've got to hear her inshallah. Okay, so look, I think it's important to to bring into this that we are a spiritually driven people and we are driven, you know, towards and by a greater understanding of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala's qada' and qadr that allows us to, you know, to find comfort and calm in certain realities that have certain things become known to us later on. If we are tested in certain ways later on, that there's a greater purpose and wisdom that that is to exist. That does not mean that the trial is not going to be difficult. But subhanAllah, I will say this, you know, having been through that that process of consulting or being consulted by various parents in that situation, that oftentimes, you know, they look back, you know, this is the benefit of being able to be someone's imam for 5-10 years and they say, Alhamdulillah Rabbul Ameen, Allah Azawajal facilitated this for us. The doctor was actually wrong. Our child lives a relatively normal life. This is our favorite child. This child, even if the child does have severe medical issues, has brought us so much barakah in our lives,
brought us closer to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, brought us closer as a family, that we have to understand that sometimes we cannot see what Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has determined for us ahead. And that's why for the believer, right, the believer, yes, will be disappointed at times, struck with hardship at times. And we'll look at that and say, you know, subhanAllah, if we would have, you know, if we would have done an ultrasound two weeks ago or three weeks ago or four weeks ago, and what did the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam say, la taqool kalimat law, don't say the word if. Don't say the word if because it opens the doors of shaitan. Instead, you know, embrace the trial that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has determined for you and turn it into a blessing because any trial that brings you closer to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is indeed a blessing. And so at that point, you know, if it happens after that time, after that yardstick, if you will, that something is determined, you, you know, you have to lean on your spiritual teachings. You have to lean on your iman. You have to go back and lean on that faith and on that, you know, on that environment that you create inshallah ta'ala that pushes you towards this idea of accepting and embracing the, you know, the qadr of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala as it is, and making the best of that situation in a way that brings you closer to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. But I've seen that play out multiple times where people look back and say, you know what? Alhamdulillah rabbil alameen, alhamdulillah we didn't make that decision. It may have been that if it showed up earlier, we would have gone for an abortion. But because, you know, it didn't show up earlier and we didn't even have that option available to us. This became our most beloved child and the greatest blessing in our lives. SubhanAllah. And just one last thing before we move on, the 40 day, Mark, you mentioned that prior to the 40 days is a bit more leniency. Do you mind just talking to that before we move on?
Sure. So look, obviously there is difference again between the madhab and I am purposely speaking at this, you know, about this sort of a surface level right now, right? There are more details in the article. And as I said, I'd recommend Dr. Salman Yunus's article as well as Dr. Hatim Al-Hajj, as well as by the way, Sheikh Hamza Yusuf, who strongly disagrees with some of the things that I've said here. It's good to get that breadth and to understand some of the fiqh departures in this regard and the difference between the madhab with all of us agreeing right at the certain fundamentals or about the certain fundamentals here. Within 40 days, you had some madhab that were extremely lenient. Right. And even within the same school of thought, that school of thought may have been classically much more lenient and then become a little bit stricter as time went on. Dr. Hatim would say, and it's a very interesting point. He'd say, subhanAllah, this is one of those issues where you see that it became stricter in the contemporary times in the fiqh sense than it was in the classical sense, that classical scholars were a bit more lenient. And it could be obviously, you know, you think about the rise of ultrasounds and our ability to be able to see, you know, having been in the room, right, you see this child on the screen, you see something of life. There is a greater connection to it, the biology, the science that gives us that greater connection. However, I think to summarize it within 40 days, obviously, anything that would qualify between 40 and 120 naturally qualifies before 40. And some of the scholars allowed at that point, you know, if it's going to pose severe challenges based upon lifestyle, if there is a mental or physical burden, if the woman does not feel like she's going to be able to go forth with this due to something that is rational, objective, then there is allowance there. However, outside of the space of medical challenges,
I want to make this very clear as well, medical challenges either to the fetus or to the mother's life, there's always the encouragement, the encouragement from a spiritual perspective to continue forward with it and to move forward with it. So even where those allowances exist, they're certainly not the encouraged pathways, but where there may be some lenience based upon the circumstances of the mother and the father, but where there is not a severe medical challenge, it is encouraged for the parents to continue forth with the pregnancy. And again, you don't have to be a doctor to be able to say, you know, I don't know what enormous possibilities also exist in terms of Baraka in your life. You know, SubhanAllah, I work with Muhsin, before Yaqeen, there was Muhsin in my life, which was Muslims understanding and helping with special education needs. I can tell you, working with parents with special needs children all the time, the blessing that those parents will attribute to that child is severe. Yes, they'll talk about challenges being severe, but they'll talk about how great the blessing is as well that has come from those children of special needs, children of Jannah, right? So it's encouraged for us to constantly go back to what we know from Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala's decree, being wiser and more expansive than anything that we can understand with our time limitations, with our thought limitations and so much more. And so the encouragement is definitely to go forward, bismillah ta'ala, and to, you know, to seek the best environment and the best ways to be able to properly care for that child and nurture that child and provide for the best upbringing for that child. Barakallah fiqh. Sister Hanna, I'm just thinking of the thousands of women who have to make this decision, you know, whether or not to continue with a pregnancy or not.
And if we're hearing that in Islam, the sanctity of life is so important, we need to protect life, we need to honour it. To make a decision to have an abortion, it is a massive burden. It's a big decision. And so my question to you is, how do we even make a decision? You know, how do we consult medical professionals, religious professionals or religious leaders? What's your advice just on that point? Like, it's a big decision. Absolutely. I think Sheikh Omar has elucidated on all of the various factors that need to be considered when a couple or when a Muslim woman is deciding to opt for an abortion. And it's because of all of these nuances, because of all of these details, it's not a decision that can be taken hastily and it's not a decision that can be taken in isolation. So seeking that consultation, both as you've just said, medical and scholarly, is an absolute must. And it's a shame because I think that abortion specific resources for the Muslim community are something that is perhaps lacking. I haven't come across many dedicated organisations or initiatives that strive to really embody the Islamic perspective on this issue and provide advice to people in this situation. But ultimately, Muslim women and couples who are trying to figure out what they should do in this situation can and first should reach out to local scholars, perhaps especially female scholars, who they feel will understand the nuances of the situation and their feelings about it in more detail. In the absence of that, local Muslim counsellors perhaps may be able to offer some advice. Alhamdulillah, we have many Muslims entering that profession now with the specific intention
of being able to provide those resources for the Muslim community. So inshallah, perhaps in the future, this is something that we'll see growth in. But at the same time, I think that this shows that there is a communal responsibility as well, that when we discuss these issues, we don't just kind of leave it at go and ask a scholar, go and ask a medical professional who is aware of these Islamic nuances. We need to make sure that those resources are actually being provided for the Muslim community. And we need to get creative about how we could actually take action to make sure they have those pathways to seek help. We need to think about how perhaps doctors can be affiliated to various masajid so that they can be directed to the people who are in need of their advice. We need to think about how we can provide female scholars or chaplains to our communities so that they can provide them with the support that is necessary for them in making this really, really big decision. And, you know, oftentimes we actually have those resources in our community. It's just about connecting them to the people who need them. Sistahana, jazakallah khair. And I wanted to follow up by asking about what you would suggest that Muslim couples or, you know, a female consider while they're making this decision. What is the process? So I think as Sheikh Omar has explained, you know, there needs to be an understanding on the part of the woman in question or of the couple as to why they are considering an abortion in the first place. Is it some of these reasons that are dire necessities? If so, then the situation is difficult and can still be extremely painful, but it's an obvious decision. It's when that you enter into the grey area of reasons that could possibly be legitimate. But at the same time, we have this encouragement, as Sheikh Omar said, to actually continue with the pregnancy, that people should be trying to look around them for people who can support them, for those with knowledge of their particular situation and of the ahkam of the Islamic laws regarding this,
that they can seek advice from and understand what would be the best action for their particular situation. But I would say on top of all of that as well, like that's the practical side. But definitely, as with everything that we do in this life, we can't get through any situation without making du'a to Allah subhana wa ta'ala and really increasing our tawakul that Allah subhana wa ta'ala will provide us with the answer for this particularly difficult situation. He will provide us with the resources that we need and with people who will be able to advise us to make that best decision. So there's kind of like a two-pronged element, I guess, where you have the actions that you need to do, but that spiritual work always needs to continue, especially in the face of making a really difficult decision like that. Yeah, I'll just add to that, you know, having been in many situations where I had to be consulted in that, being the imam of my community in New Orleans for six years, then obviously being in a more developed community here in Dallas, alhamdulillah, we have multiple resources, right? I don't have to be that person that's working with doctors and couples. But a lot of times it's important for you to go to someone who has that ilmi background, who has that knowledge background, a scholarly background, and put them in consultation with who's aware of the medical situation. And I know that that sounds very hard and difficult, and it is honestly, it's one of those situations where you don't have a perfect answer when you're getting into the gray area. And it's one of those situations where we have a lot to develop as a community in terms of offering the type of support. And I applaud efforts by scholars and, you know, and practitioners who come together and who author, you know, fatawa that are informed by what is coming from the medical side of things and, you know, seek to offer that resource to the community. And alhamdulillah, I think that that's something that we'll continue to see inshallah ta'ala.
You know, there are many Dr. Hatim and Hajjahs in the world that are, you know, medical doctors as well as scholars of the tradition. They're very few and far in between. But at the same time, there are alhamdulillah, I mean, more and more situations now where you have scholars that are working together with different disciplines that are authoring just more comprehensive fatawa. On the individual level, don't go to Google until you find the fatwa that you want. Certainly don't ask people on Twitter whether you should get an abortion or not. And don't tell someone on Twitter that they should, should or should not. Right. Just kind of stay away from, you know, these these arenas when it comes to making such an important decision in your life. And, you know, just like with everything else, if there are local resources that are strong enough, that are personal enough, that that you feel comfortable you can sit with and really talk through that situation, then do so. And inshallah, I hope as a community, we'll continue to develop that infrastructure. I mean, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala help anyone that is in that situation. I can tell, you know, one of the things that's that's very different about the pastoral and the political is that the political is so dry and often speaks about these issues. And with such confidence and this this this dryness that really takes away from what those who work on the pastoral side see. I've never seen anyone make this decision with ease in my entire life. It's not an easy decision. It's a very difficult decision. And I've found many subhanAllah that lean on like the story of Maryam alayhi salam. You know, when she felt what she felt and look at the blessing that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala gave to her through carrying Isa alayhi salam. And obviously she would not have known that in the moment. But this is sort of what we lean upon. Right. The same way we go to the story of Yusuf alayhi salam and the story of Ibrahim alayhi salam.
There is a very unique, I think, point of comfort that I've found that many sisters have been able to draw from the story of Maryam alayhi salam. And if I could get very personal for a moment, please. I was not I was not planning to share this at all. But I I gave a lecture about my own mother, Allah irhamha, a long time ago when my mother was pregnant with me. And first of all, she she was told that she would never be able to be pregnant again because she had multiple medical issues. She had blood transfusion after blood transfusion after blood transfusion when she was carrying me. And, you know, I go back now and I have those conversations with my father and it was like, you know, there were multiple times where it was like we were going to call it quits. And I understood what that meant. SubhanAllah. So I'm even looking at my own existence. Right. And I'm saying, subhanAllah, the tawakkul that my own mother had, Allah irhamha, when she was when she was carrying me, when she was told she'd never be able to conceive again, by the way. And I mentioned this and you can look up that lecture, which I had to rehearse like a hundred times before I gave it about her life. You know, at Iqna, I want to say 10 years ago. SubhanAllah, she, you know, it's really stunning. But when when she was told she'd never be able to have a child, she laughed in the doctor's face and said, you're not God. Those those are her words. You're not God. And subhanAllah, like like when I think about that, you know, that word of tawakkul that she had. Obviously, that's something that both men and women can draw from bithna ta'ala for themselves. And I think some of the current examples of inspiration that we can find of tawakkul, I always look for them. And I tell people there are awliya in our ummah today. There are awliya, there are salihin in our ummah today that we can draw a lot of inspiration from. We don't just we don't just have to relegate ourselves to the text. Awliya, righteous people amongst us that have been through enormous challenges and have shown us the blessings that have come through those challenges.
JazakAllah khair, Sheikh Omar for sharing that. To be honest, you gave me a bit of shivers because you reminded me of a decision also that my mother had to make. And I've never shared this publicly, but I'm going to. My my mom was carrying me and her father, her sorry, my brother who passed away just 20 days before I was born. And during the pregnancy, my my mom was traveling around the world with my dad looking for a cure for my brother. And she went through that questioning on whether or not she should continue with me. Alhamdulillah, so she went through it and alhamdulillah, and I ask Allah for me to be a reason for her to be in paradise. But it's a it's difficult, you know, it's a big, big decision on a mom to to continue with a pregnancy. Despite all the challenges and all the fear of the future, fear of financial insecurity. Of medical challenges, as I said, my my brother passed away from a medical disease and her fear was that the same thing is going to happen to me. So alhamdulillah, it is it is difficult, but. I believe there's Baraka and I agree with what you're saying, Dr. Omar, that. You know, Islam draws the line at 120 days, and I'm glad it does, because. Ultimately, there is wisdom in what Allah chooses for us. Alhamdulillah. May Allah make your brother a shafi' for your mother. May Allah make you a sadiqa jariah for your mother. Allahumma ameen.
And subhanAllah, what you mentioned of uncertainty here. What what was Maryam alayhi salam's fear? Alaytani mittu qabla hadha wa kuntu nasyan mansiyah. I wish I would die. I would have died before this and been completely forgotten. And that the boy that she gave birth to extended her name to every part of the world. And the boy that she gave birth to has yet to die. Isa alayhi salam. Allah has wisdom that is that is far greater than what we can encompass. And again, if you don't look, if we don't draw from if we let those those stories become just mere stories of the past. And we can't draw the immense beauty from them when we go through difficult moments in our own lives, then what's the point of it? That's not why the Quran was given to us. That's not why these stories were given to us. They were given to us for a reason. And I see time and time again, the story of Asiya alayhi salam, the story of Maryam alayhi salam, the story of Yusuf alayhi salam. And of course, above all, the story of Muhammad salallahu alayhi wasalam. These are the stories that give us life and that give us direction and clarity when we reach these junctures in our lives where we don't really understand what do we do now? Where do we go from here? And Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says, look where they went from there. And you'll find where you should go from here and you'll find you'll find immense beauty and profound wisdom in what is to come. So may Allah make that the case for for all of us and all of our trials. May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala help all of those parents that are in that difficult situation right now. Jazakallah khair. We need to cover the politics. Dr. Omar, sistahina. I feel so bad to jump into politics. You're the one who brought it. You mentioned pastoral politics. So I'm going to just, you know, hold you to account.
And I think we need to shift gears to the politics now because it's been in the news. The conversation about abortion has a political element that we haven't really explored so far. The topics all over the news because it was leaked that the US Supreme Court was considering overturning the Roe versus Wade, a 1973 court. Sorry, a 1973 court ruling that decided abortion was a right protected by the US Constitution. This gave women the ability to terminate a pregnancy without excessive government restrictions. And if the Supreme Court today were to rule on the case, abortion could be immediately and entirely outlawed in about 26 states. And in in the US, the debate boils down to two sides being what is called pro-life, which wants more government restrictions on abortion or being pro-choice, the side that wants fewer government restrictions. And there are, of course, extremes on both sides. Some want to ban abortions entirely and some want no restrictions at all. Based on our conversation today, it's clear to me that Islam is very nuanced when it comes to abortion. But which side as Muslims should we be supporting in this debate? Are we pro-life or are we pro-choice? So I would I would say again, and this is why I love the article that was written by Dr. Salman, the problem of narrow conceptualization. We always have to start from the point of Islam, not try to box Islam into a very narrow conceptualization. I think that it's important for us to say that as Muslims, obviously, we have a very unique view on abortion. And it's one that resonates with the fitrah of people. It resonates with the the natural disposition of people.
SubhanAllah, it's one that that makes sense for a lot of people. And you mentioned that there are extremes. I would argue that, you know, most Americans, even by data, by the way, are not absolutists on the issue. So as Muslims, I would, you know, if we were to just take it at the abortion at surface level, we'd say, well, obviously, you know, Muslims would start from a juncture of pro-life. Right. And things of that sort and then have the exceptions of when there is a choice to terminate a pregnancy. But the thing is, is that when you say pro-life, there is a whole lot of political nefariousness to unpack there. And when you say pro-choice, there's there's a whole lot of philosophical underpinning to unpack there. And both of them are in complete contradiction with us as Muslims, complete contradiction. And so what I would say is it's important for us to speak from our unique position. And not that the majority dictates where we stand, but subhanAllah, where we stand actually resonates with a great number of Americans because it just makes sense. Allah has given us something that is fitri in its nature, that's natural in its nature. So, for example, the majority of Americans, the majority of Americans favor late term abortion restrictions. That's the majority of the country, right. 70 percent of the country. But just like everything else in our country, we're forced into, you know, taking a side, choose a side. As Muslims, we come with what we come with. We come with, you know, something that is divinely based and we speak to the fitri of people. And this is the fitri of people. And so I'd say that, again, let's get away from the narrow conceptualizations. Let's not water down our fiqh. We talk about what our fiqh is, but then let's also talk about social responsibility. Let's also talk about the quality of life of the mother. Let's also talk about what it means to be pro-life in the ultimate sense and not see ourselves as being ultimate owners of our of our bodies and of our lives.
But as part of an amanah, a trust from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Let's bring all of those dimensions in. So the political nefariousness. Look, I'm in Texas. There's a reason why people are deeply suspicious of many in the pro-life camp. Right. Like, you know, when they talk about school shootings and they talk about the atrocious things that happen to children at the border and mass incarceration, things that still continue under the Biden administration, by the way, you know, and they still talk about, you know, being pro-life. It's like, well, wait a minute. You only care for the unborn, but you seem to not care for the born if they're born with a different color than yours. There is a reason why people are deeply suspicious of someone that camp. But I would take very seriously, for example, and I'd find a lot to align with the Catholics that work at the border of the United States and that care for those children and try to take them out of these, these horrific conditions and also are pro-life, even if their conception of being pro-life is stricter than the Islamic conception, because, as I said, the stable life and versus the potential life and the the point of life being different. I would find so much more to relate to. Resonate with that person that that cares about people as a whole and that demonstrates with a track record, this care for the mother, this care for the child, this care for people of all races and backgrounds. I would say that's something that resonates with my with my fitra and that I find my dean very close to. So we cannot take on the baggage of some of the political suspicion and inconsistency, nor can we take on the baggage of some of the philosophical underpinnings on the other side. We are an amanah from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and everything that Allah gives us is an amanah, a trust from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and every person is part of our amanah when we are able to care for them and take care of them.
And so we should be talking about not putting this life in competition with this life, but instead improving the quality of life, improving social responsibility, doing away with some of the root causes of unwanted pregnancy and then people in poverty, paying the ultimate prices and being put alone into these difficult situations, taking care of the mother, trying to find ways to care for the child. This should be the Islamic intervention into all of this. Rahmatan lil alameen, that should be the, you know, being a mercy to the world. That should be the Islamic intervention in this, not inheriting the baggage that comes with the various camps that exist in our very broken American politics today. So sister Hanna, would you like to add anything to kind of this, this debate of boxing ourselves into one of the two camps? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm coming from the outside here, as are you, I think, Mohamed as well. You know, we're not from the US. And so when I look in on this debate and I see people trying to squash Islam into either the pro-life or the pro-choice boxes, it seems to me that they end up doing two things. The first is that they simplify the current debate in the US, which is fundamentally political and in a way that is quite unique to the US political system as well, I'd say. And secondly, it reduces Islam's nuance on abortion, as you said, but also Islam's nuance on how more generally we reconcile conflicting moral and political concerns, particularly as Muslim minorities. And this is really frustrating because I think that it's really important for us as Muslim communities in the West to have political literacy and to be able to untangle the various layers of this issue as it's manifesting in the mainstream.
And when, you know, although this is a sensitive topic, we can't afford to really react defensively about this and let it become another weapon in the culture war that is unfortunately seeping into the into the Muslim community. And I think that's a really important thing to be able to do in the in the Muslim communities in the West as well. The way I see it, the pro-life and the pro-choice camps are actually posing two more specific questions for the Muslim community directly and in particular. The pro-life side asks, should Muslims support the position that upholds the sanctity of life that obviously Islam does ordain, as we've said. And it would be harmful to people, including Muslims, by preventing abortions that Islam could allow or by making unsafe abortions a norm in society. That's the pro-life side. The pro-choice side is asking Muslims, should you support the position that minimizes government intervention in our lives and so maximizes our ability to practice our faith individually on this issue, but also on other social issues? So none of these questions are actually about the fiqh of abortion. These questions are about the relationship between politics and religion, the priorities of Muslim minorities in the West and the future of religious freedom in liberal societies. So it's really not about trying to label them as Islam is pro-choice, Islam is pro-life of this particular abortion ruling. And I think rather than fixating on the issue of this ruling, which is one that also the general public at this moment in time does not have control over the actual results, I think it's more important that we think about the narratives that make people take a certain position. Because if someone's opinion on this is influenced by a political narrative, it's not necessarily as problematic and definitely not as bad as somebody taking a moral position on that issue.
Somebody thinking that the government should not be involved in personal decisions made with respect to fertility and marriage and social issues is not the same as thinking that abortion is acceptable or that women have sovereign rights over their bodies to do however they please. So being conscious of the political element in this conversation does not mean that our moral stance as Muslims need to change. In fact, when we acknowledge that there is a political dimension to this debate, then we're actually more effectively able to tackle the moral arguments that are being used to drag people into this conversation. Because many people on both sides are making this an issue of values. I mean, the very names of both camps, you know, you have pro-choice on one side, pro-freedom of choice, female agency, empowerment, and then you have pro-life on the other side. You have sanctity of life. These are values. And I think we do have to be conscious of that because I have also spoken to several Muslim women who have perhaps started to feel more affinity for the pro-choice side because they've been exposed to a lot of value-laden propaganda from perhaps the pro-choice side, who, you know, try and demonize motherhood and spread negative narratives about pregnancy and show that this is not something that anything that any woman should be forced into doing. Everyone should have a choice as to whether they enter into this or not. So it's when we see arguments like that, that we need to step in and start educating people on the values of parenthood, the values of family, and inform them of the wisdom of the Islamic stance on abortion and indeed the fiqh as we've been explaining, as Sheikh Omar has been explaining thus far. But really, I find that this whole conversation is actually a test of our judgment as Muslims.
We need to be the ones who are able to identify that this part of the conversation is about deeper political issues and this part of the conversation is about our values on abortion. And we need to have both of those conversations, but we can't conflate them. Thank you so much. I appreciate that, actually, because it's very easy to box ourselves in. And when we limit ourselves to kind of the headlines on billboards, you know, they generally talk about values, but there is a lot of nuances, a lot of baggage with each side. So as a Muslim, then, Sister Hannah, how do I interact with these slogans and how do I interact with these two camps? What should I be adding to the conversation? I think that when we see these slogans being kind of bandied around, whether it's on social media or, you know, obviously, for people living in the US, they see it on their news commentary and on daily analysis of this issue. I think ultimately, we need to be clever. And although we understand, you know, sort of why people on either side are making a certain case, recognize, as we've said, and as Sheikh Omar said, that this is not about picking sides. We need to be able to identify which parts of the conversations stem from a particular belief and address what Islam's belief on that particular issue is. Aside from that, what can Muslims offer to, you know, the abortion debate and what perspective should we be bringing? I mean, ultimately, the Islamic position on this issue is really the only intelligent position because it manages to reconcile the value of human life with the value of the Muslim community. And it also manages to reconcile the value of human life with certain specific considerations that are related to this world as well.
It achieves that balance, which current debates do not, by taking a position that is fundamentally moral, but also merciful, that restricts abortion with the purpose of inspiring strength and reliance on God, not out of punishment, not as a burden. Between having to choose, with having to choose between these extremes, it's our responsibility as Muslims to share that with our friends, with our neighbors, with our colleagues and show them why ultimately we need the guidance of Allah subhana wa ta'ala in our lives today. MashaAllah, those are profound, by the way. I think your summary at the end of that is exactly where I think we should be. I would tell people that, you know, we don't want to nuance something or both sides something to where we have no moral intervention whatsoever. I think that fundamentally moral, but also merciful. I am concerned with the unborn and I am concerned with the born. I am concerned with late term abortions. I am concerned with children that are born into this world and mothers that don't have proper health care and people in poverty that have compounded problems. And whose lives are turned into political footballs. I'm concerned with all that. And if Islam, when there are two issues, you know, two sides of a very polarizing issue of Islam agrees with 80% on one side and 20% on the other side, we should still be speaking with Islam. Not say, yeah, you're right and you're right. No, no. Or you're wrong and you're wrong. No, no. What we have is actually a very intelligent intervention that's both moral and merciful. I love that. I might go update my article with those two words because I think that it says exactly what we need to be saying. And I think it resonates with people's fitrah.
Look, this is it's heartbreaking, subhanAllah, to see Muslims fall into this stuff and to start using the same rhetoric as others on the side and depart from the ethics and the words and the framings of the Prophet salallahu alihi wasalam. We have concerns as Muslims with everything that's happening in society around us, especially where there's ta'ddi, where there's wrongdoing, transgression, whether that transgression is against the unborn life or the born life, the mother or whatever it may be on the basis of, you know, race or whatever it may be. We have concerns as Muslims that drive us. And the fiqhi details of 40 versus 120 and you know, what are the reasons here? That's not going to change any of that. I think that if you if you think about our collective Muslim voice, it's an intelligent overall position, fundamentally moral, fundamentally merciful, both to the mother and to the child. And we pray that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala allows us to to to assert that that wasatiyya, that balance that is sorely missed on this issue and on all other issues as well. Dr. Ammar, Sister Hanna, on that note, I'd like to wrap up this conversation on abortion with one final question. Normally we ask a question on behalf of my nine year old niece, but I don't think it's appropriate that she asks this particular question because that'll be a problem and a reflection of me. Let's just say my 13 year old niece comes to you and asks the question on what Islam's position on abortion is. And if it's a fair position, what is your response? I'd send them to the article. 13 year olds, you can go read the article and say read the conclusion of the article.
You know, the last paragraph in that article, that's also at the end of the infographic. Yeah, we can send the nine year old and the 13 year old to the infographic as well. But on a serious note, what you're mentioning here is that as Muslims, we seek to protect the life of the mother and the life of the child. And if something happens to where the mother's life is at threat or the child's life is at threat or some excruciating circumstance, then sometimes this is permitted. But it's certainly not ideal. And we trust Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala with his wisdom and with his plan as a whole. And we ask Allah to allow us to act in accordance with our best potential within that plan. Was your 13 year old satisfied? Almost. She's waiting for sister Hanad's response. Well, I think I would say that in Islam, life is sacred. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is the one who gives life and he's the one who takes life. But there are certain exceptions where because Islam understands the nuance of human life, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is our creator, knows the tests and the trials that people go through. And so in some limited circumstances, abortion may be permitted. But for full details, people need to consult a scholar and or read Sheikh Omar's article or look at the infographic. Sister Hanad, Dr. Omar, Jazakumullah khair. It's a very, very sensitive topic. It's a timely topic. And I appreciate your time in prepping for this episode and sharing with us your your insights and your wisdoms. We are going to change gears now even further and move to the rapid fire section of Double Take. We're going to be a little bit quicker because we went over time on the episode. So you only have instead of 10 seconds, three seconds to answer each question. I'll start with you, Dr. Omar, because you're a you're a pro at this. You've been on Double Take before. What's the last book that you were reading?
The Quran. You asked me for it. Yes. I'll say actually, I'll actually say Sayyidul Khatir Ibn al-Jawzi, rahim Allah ta'ala. The last 10 nights of Ramadan, we were doing Sayyidul Khatir Ibn al-Jawzi, rahim Allah ta'ala. Some of his reflections. And I've still been enjoying reading it ever since Ramadan, even though we passed the last 10 nights. Amazing. Sister Hanad? Oh, gosh, this is going to sound very nerdy, but I was reading Restating Orientalism by Professor Wael Halaq. Actually, I was reading that, but I was also reading Sherlock Holmes. I was in Medina recently and I saw a copy of Sherlock Holmes on sale and I thought I'd get it to read up to Eid. So, yeah, both of those. Sister Hanad, you're in the UK, so I'm going to ask you this question. What's the strangest thing you've eaten? I am extremely unadventurous when it comes to food, but I also sense the bias here that food in the UK is strange, which I would push back against. We have a lot of great food, but I guess some of the things that are a bit crazier I haven't touched. I think that probably the strangest thing is unfortunately not British. I studied Chinese for many years and my teacher once brought in Chinese mooncake. I think it was during the Mid-Autumn Festival or something. And this mooncake happened to be, I think it was a particular variety, but it was also slightly undercooked. And so Chinese mooncakes, they have egg yolk in the centre. Unfortunately, this was not cooked well, and so it ended up being a raw egg in the centre of this cake. And so it was a little bit difficult to stomach and not something I'd try again. I'd probably put that as the strangest. Thank you. Sheikh Amar, name one life hack that's helped you maximise your time and organise your life in the last year.
One life hack in the last year. So I'll tell you one that I've been trying and I'm still trying to master it. All right. Are you ready for this? You've got to remember the term. I remember I learned this term. Have you ever heard of a nappuccino? No. Oh, to have a coffee just before you sleep? Exactly. And then wake up 10 minutes later. Exactly. Exactly. I'm still trying to master it. The times that it's worked are amazing. So you drink your coffee and you sleep right away before the caffeine can hit and then you wake up 20 minutes later and you feel absolutely amazing. So it's called a nappuccino. Try it out. If it works, you're welcome. If it doesn't work, I'm sorry. Jazakallah. It does work. I'm testing it. Sister Hannah, would you rather fight an orangutan with a sword once a year or fight a chicken every time you get in your car? Just before you answer that, I just want to shout out to Tariq who wrote these questions. Wow. OK, this makes a little bit more sense now that I hear it's coming from Tara. But OK, was the second one the chicken? You can fight a chicken every time you get in your car. Right. Yeah, I'm relatively risk averse, so I think there's less chance of sustaining major injuries fighting a chicken, even if it's every time you get in your car. So and you become very routine after a while. I think you'd figure out the chicken's weak spots. I'm going with the chicken. Thank you. Dr. Ahmad, can I say before you say it, Tariq, you did not write any of my dad jokes in Quran 30 for 30. I had no one to write those for me. So I just wanted to say I'm taking credit. That's fine. OK, fine. Well, you can take them. Dr. Ahmad, you do a lot of traveling. Name one place that you'd love to visit this coming year. And why is it Sydney?
You know what? SubhanAllah. So so so in reality, Australia, Sheikh Bilal Assad, hafizahullah ta'ala, I absolutely love him and adore him and I want to meet him inshallah in person. We communicate over the phone and he's someone who, you know, some of you may have heard his beautiful lectures, Sheikh Bilal. And I know that he's also, you know, he was tested quite severely prior to Covid with the loss of a son, his brother. May Allah have mercy on them and make his son a shafi' for him and for his for his wife. Allahumma ameen. A deep, deep, deep love and connection for him with him. SubhanAllah. So I told him when Covid started, we were messaging on WhatsApp. I said, Sheikh Bilal, I'm coming, man. I'm coming to Australia inshallah as soon as things open up. So I owe him a visit to Australia. And of course, lots of ahbab, lots of beloved people there. MashaAllah. You know, the brothers and sisters, they're at One Path, all the mashayikh that are there in Australia. I would love to see them. So inshallah soon, Australia. But prior to that, this year, more realistically, Nigeria inshallah. InshaAllah, Ya Rabb. My last question to sister Hana. You're in an elevator with a Muslim woman who doesn't consume much Islamic content. What's your 30 second pitch for the Qarawiyyin project? So I would say the Qarawiyyin project is our tagline, which is an initiative aimed at reviving Islamic discourse amongst Muslim women. On our website, we share articles written by Muslim women from all over the world who want to analyse modern challenges from an Islamic perspective. We also have a podcast and we host local and online events.
And as an organisation, I think we're passionate about making a space where Muslim women can learn from one another, connect to our religion and contribute to solving some of the big problems of our time through knowledge production. And we're always looking for sisters to get involved. So please do visit our website and get in touch with us. Dr. Ammar, sister Hana, Jazakumullah khair for your time. You can read Dr. Ammar's article, Islam and the Abortion Debate, at yaqeeninstitute.org. Until next time, see you, Inshallah and Barakallah Fikum.
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