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James Webb Telescope: Muslims in Space | DoubleTake S3 E12
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The James Webb Space Telescope is set to be operational by July as NASA’s flagship mission in astrophysics. In the coming years, we are expected to learn more about the first stars and galaxies after the Big Bang, and we may see significant progress toward becoming a multiplanetary species.
What does Islam have to say about the importance of space exploration? How does the Big Bang fit into our understanding of creation from the Islamic perspective? Does studying space have any importance to our daily lives as Muslims?
In this episode, host Mohamad Zaoud talks to astrophysicist and data scientist Dr. Aycha Tammour, about how Muslims should think about space exploration.
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Transcript
This transcript was auto-generated using AI and may contain misspellings. Assalamualaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuhu Welcome to a new episode of Double Take, a podcast by Yaqeen Institute about the questions and ideas around Islam and Muslims that give us pause. If you haven't already done so, please feel free to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. And if you like what you hear or want to share some feedback, always willing to take it, you can let us know directly in the link in the show notes. I'm Muhammad Zahed and today I had the chance to sit down with an astrophysicist, Dr. A'ishah Tammur, to discuss how we as Muslims should interact with what's going on out there in space. Dr. A'ishah received her PhD in astronomy in 2016 from the University of Western Ontario, where she studied active galactic nuclei, focusing mostly on quasars. Before starting her PhD in Canada, she was a Fulbright student at Minnesota State University, where she completed her master's in physics. Enjoy the episode. Dr. A'ishah, assalamualaikum and welcome to Double Take. Thank you for having me. I'm really glad you took the time because Dr. A'ishah, I've been fascinated by space and space travel for a long time now. And I've been even more excited recently because of the launch of NASA's James Webb Telescope, which we're expected to see the photos from in July.
But before we talk about Muslims and space, I'd love to hear about your story and your background. You started your scientific journey in Syria by completing your bachelor's in physics. Mashallah. What pushed you to pursue a PhD in astronomy? Yeah, so bismillah, alhamdulillah, wasalatu wasalamu ala rasool Allah. Yeah, I was studying for my undergrad in Syria, studying physics. I've always liked physics and math and was good at it. So I think that my second year I was probably bored in the library and I came across a book with some nice cover about something about space. And until that time, I was under the impression that astrophysics is one of those topics that can only be studied in advanced research level. But then when I opened the book and I found a chapter about the sun and the sun, you know, feels familiar. So I was reading it and then the physics sounded familiar as well. So now, in hindsight, it sounds common sense. Obviously, it's going to be the same physics. But for me, it was a moment where I discovered that the space is just this awesome natural laboratory where a physicist can observe some of the most interesting physics that could perhaps be impossible or very hard to replicate in the laboratories here on Earth. I mean, I'm thinking of stuff like very high energy particles, crazy magnetic fields or very massive objects like supermassive black holes or clusters of galaxies that are gravitationally bound. They're so massive, they end up bending space time. And then, you know, it sounds like stuff from science fiction movies, but it's real. So I was immediately hooked.
Alhamdulillah, I had the opportunity to travel and pursue my interest and work with wonderful people for my master's and PhD. I'm glad you did, because I would say very few Muslims are in this space. That's my assumption. And very few Muslim women are in this space. So thank you for pushing the boundaries and being on the forefront of this stuff. So I'm going to test my knowledge here and you feel free to correct me, right, because I've been researching the James Webb telescope quite a bit over the last few months. And my understanding is that it's succeeding the Hubble telescope at NASA's flagship mission in astrophysics. So Hubble, as I understand, was primarily an ultraviolet and visible light observatory, which helped us learn a lot about space, but it couldn't see through the clouds and the dust that absorbed visible light. That's my understanding. Whereas James Webb is more kind of infrared. It's designed to operate primarily on infrared technology, and so it can see through the clouds, it can see through the dust. NASA wants to look back 13, 14 billion years to explore the first stars and galaxies that formed after the Big Bang, so we can learn more about the evolution of space in our own solar system. This has a lot of potential consequences for us, especially as Muslims, because like, how do we marry kind of that knowledge with our deen? So I guess through this telescope, we'll better understand the history of space and the origins of the Earth. We'll explore the potential of living on other planets and becoming a multi-planetary species, potentially. And we could even potentially discover life in other galaxies. This is what I'm reading. This is what I'm watching on YouTube and hearing Elon Musk talk about.
All this is incredibly exciting. But as a Muslim, I wonder, do we have any guidance on this in the Quran and the Sunnah? In the Quran, you know, as far as I know, and as far as I read, we hear only about one Earth, one Earth, not multiple Earths. So all of this, to ask Dr. Aisha, it's not a big question. Is space and the potential for human life in space mentioned in the Islamic tradition? I think all of us, you know, are excited about the Webb telescope and Hubble isn't going to be completely retired. I think it's going to probably continue to function for some time. The question you ask is an interesting question. If you open the Quran, you see it's replete with ayat that talks about the skies and the As-Samawat appears a lot in the Quran in different contexts. Does it talk specifically about different, about potential of life on different planets? I don't know. I don't think I've seen any reference that comes directly and talks about the potential of us traveling to other galaxies or other planets. But I think what's more important is that I haven't seen also anything against it. If you read what the scholars say about this issue, when they're asked, they said, you know, when Allah created us, he called to create other earths and other planets and other peoples. Sometimes people think when astronomers are looking at life outside Earth in extra, you know, exoplanets,
they're not necessarily looking for intelligent life. Sometimes they're just looking for signatures of life. So any signatures of, you know, biology happening there could be potentially important for scientists. I don't think the Quran mentioned anything specifically about this issue. And that's that's there is nothing wrong with that. The Quran is a book of guidance. You wouldn't expect it to have, you know, specific information about any scientific issue or otherwise. The question for me is, what would you say is the importance of us as Muslims looking into this space? Like what what urges you on a day to day basis to say, you know what, I must continue focusing? Yeah, so I mean, there are so many reasons. And when I start talking about this issue, I can, you know, go on for hours. So I'm going to try to stay focused and not, you know, go on. So, for instance, Mohamed, you live in Australia. Which direction is your Qibla? Northwest or closer to west. OK, it makes sense considering the map and your position towards Mecca. When I was in Syria, my Qibla was just simply south. When I moved to North America, it was a different story. And without going into the details, the Qibla in North America only a few decades ago, there was actually a discussion among scholars of the direction of the Qibla in North America. And people who discussed this issue, which is a purely religious ritual topic, were scholars in Islam. But they also needed a lot of knowledge in geography, astronomy, coordinate systems, a lot of, you know,
there was a lot of need for those topics to actually make an informed decision about this very, you know, purely religious issue. This wasn't strange. This is very similar to a situation the early generation Muslims found themselves in when they started moving farther from Mecca. And they started living in areas that are, that when the Qibla direction wasn't obvious, because they didn't have the technology we have right now. So they had to figure out ways to calculate the direction, to figure out where to pray, which direction to pray. So in North Africa and Iraq as well, people there had to digest the existing knowledge in those areas and, you know, produce knowledge that was specifically meant to serve their religion, to serve Islam. So this is one very clear application that the seasonal discussions around moon sighting as well, people who, whether they do the calculations and look at maps and, you know, tables, or people who go out to seek, observe the moon, both sites, they need to have some background knowledge on the moon, its phases and its cycle, and how it's positioned in the sky vis-a-vis the sun and the horizon. There's a lot of knowledge that's needed to produce a decision whether the new month started or not. And I argue that certain, you know, in certain years when there was an issue with those decisions, it was based on someone who just thought they observed the moon and they were probably wrong and nobody around them was able to tell them, you know, that this is probably a mistake.
So that's one angle to look at it, completely ritual, ibadah-related topic. So from a spiritual application, let's look at how it appears in the Quran. The context, if we kind of zoom out and look at what's exactly the purpose of mentioning those ayat, is to move the reader from the seen to the unseen, is to help us, you know, be able to see Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala through his creation, to, you know, know that there is a creator, to know that the creator is one. So the oneness of Allah, how do you know that there's a Jannah and a Naar? How do you believe in resurrection on the Day of Judgment? You can't see this stuff, you can't measure it, and there was a lot of resistance from the early, from the Meccans when the Quran was revealed. And you'll see many ayat coming to say Allah who created this is able to resurrect you. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, you know, pointing at the creation of the heavens and earth to help us believe that there is a creator and a designer for all this that we see. There's also another very important spiritual aspect of this issue that can be seen when we understand our position in the sky, our very tiny size, and our very, you know, very normal location, if we can use that word, where we sit in the galaxy, and our size, and even the time span that the earth and the solar system exist in. It's a blink of an eye in terms of the age, if we compare it to the age of the universe. This is important for us as humans to realize and to internalize, because otherwise how would you face challenges in life?
How would you face, you know, even successes? How would you look at powerful people without having this feeling that, you know, there is a creator who put me here, and I have an amanah, and I am seen by this creator, and I'm significant because I can, I can talk to him directly, and I live in this vast universe, but still I matter, right? There is a certain existential element for understanding astronomy, and I think it's very important, combined with what the Qur'an mentions about believing in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, to help us on a spiritual level connect with the rest of the creation and be in a state of communion with the rest of the creation and with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala who created us. Jazakallah khair. You know, for me, busy at work, busy with family, have kind of social obligations, it's very, very hard to get out of the day to day, and there are probably two things that really help me put things in context, maybe three things. When I studied the akhira, the hereafter, and what's going to happen in the grave and day of judgment, that kind of adds to perspective. The other one is nature. For me, when I kind of just sit at the beach, because nature is kind of the one thing that doesn't lie in this world, and just helps you put things into perspective and reminds you of Allah. The other one is space, and that's why I've taken a pretty strong interest in it, because the more we look into space, the more we put things into perspective, and the more we're able to actually appreciate the grandeur of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.
And I know that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala asked us to travel through the earth, وَانذُرُوا كَيْفَ بَدَأَ الْخَلْقِ to see how the world was created. But does He also recommend that we go and see into space to figure out how earth was created, or how the world was created? I guess I have two questions for you. Is this an Islamic thing in your mind, to go and explore space to figure out how earth was created? And if it is, did any of the prophets do that? Or did any of the religious figures of the past do that? Because from what I read, not much. Yeah, so traveling outside earth isn't necessary to understand the universe. The prophets before us, if you want to take their examples, and we should, did reflect on space a lot. The Prophet ﷺ was known among his Sahaba to frequently look at the sky. He will be sitting with them and they will see him frequently just look up. There is a hadith that mentioned him looking up before he makes dua, or even when he recited the ayah from Ali Imran, إِنَّ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرَضِ وَالْإِخْتِلَافِ الْدَيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ The hadith from Ibn Abbas, he mentions that the Prophet ﷺ woke up at night, and then he went out and he looked at the sky, and he started reciting, إِنَّ فِي خَلْقِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرَضِ وَالْإِخْتِلَافِ الْدَيْلِ وَالنَّهَارِ So our Prophet ﷺ used to frequently look at the sky, whether it was a sign of longing to his Creator, or just trying to get a relief from all the burden that comes with the prophethood. He ﷺ did that.
So another prophet who is mentioned in the Quran to look at the sky was Prophet Ibrahim. And I really like his story because he used a style of demonstration. When he ﷺ was mentioned to look at the sky when night came down, and he saw a kawkab. People say it's Venus. When he looked at it and Venus went below the horizon, he told people, well, this can't be my Lord because it changed at least, right? And then he saw the moon, and then the moon went down, and then he saw the sun, and he pointed it again, and the sun went down. And then he told them, you know, these objects, these things change. They go down, they go up. They can't be a god. What he's trying to do here is really using one of the famous arguments that people use to infer the presence of a god, and that's the argument of, you know, contingency, right? If something is contingent, it can't be a god. And some scholars say what he was doing, he's actually really reflecting, he's thinking out loud and reaching that conclusion. But what it seems that majority said, he was really just doing a demonstration to his people, trying to show them by example and demonstrate the argument that these things in the sky, you can't worship this because they don't have the quality of the god they should be worshipping. The ayat exactly before that, in the same surah, Allah says, وَكَذَٰلِكَ نُرِي إِبْرَاهِيمَ مَلَكُوتَ السَّمَوَاتِ وَالْأَرْقِ وَلِيَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُوقِنِينَ
And this is how we show Ibrahim the malakut, which is often translated as dominion of the samawat and ardh. So he becomes one of those who have certitude, become one of the muqinin, right? And we don't know exactly what this malakut of the samawat and ardh, but it seems as if Ibrahim was given this gift, this special gift of being able to see the inner secrets of Allah's dominion over the heavens and earth, and that gave him this certitude. So I feel subhanAllah when I try to study this topic and encourage people to study it, as if we're on the same path towards certitude, towards yaqeen, that prophets were on it before us. And that we should point and hopefully show them the right path. InshaAllah we can continue to learn more about it to reach that yaqeen inshaAllah. Jazakallahu khair. I mean, that's exactly why I'm interested in it. I just feel like with the day to day and being sucked into kind of very, very difficult circumstances in this life, the one way that for me that works is just looking up and reading about, you know, the exoplanets and reading about, you know, previous stars and the Big Bang and whatnot. And what James Webb, as I understand, is doing is taking us back in time to look at the earliest stars and to show us how the world was closer to the Big Bang. So I do want to kind of talk about the Big Bang because we can't talk about space without that, because we're going to hear a lot about it in the coming months. So I, you probably already know this question, but with regards to the Big Bang, is there a contradiction with what we're about to hear from scientists and the early stars and our faith? Was the world created through a Big Bang?
So that's a very interesting topic. And it's like one of those that certainly has an interesting history as well. People used to think until the early last century that the universe was static. And they were until Hubble was able to demonstrate through observations that the galaxies are moving away from each other. So that people realized the further you look, they're moving away from each other. People realized, well, if you extrapolate this back, then this means that everything was actually together in a very dense state that they started the whole thing. And then there were other physical evidence to show that there was actually a big event that started the whole thing. Now, the Big Bang word might sound like something that exploded. But what happened at the Big Bang is that space itself and time itself started. So what was this the creation, the moment of creation? It does carry a lot of the signature of how we see creation, but we don't really know. It's part of the hype. And even scientists don't really go as far as to reaching that point when the Big Bang happened. There are limitations in terms of like how far back in time you can go. They can go very, very close to that moment. And it does seem like, you know, this is the moment where time and everything, basically everything started. And Allahu A'lam, it sounds like this is when creation happened, but we can't really tell for sure. So what I do understand in terms of the interaction between Islam and this theory of the Big Bang is that we're OK with it in general.
We're OK with us looking into the Big Bang and figuring out how this world was created. And that's not a problem. The problem is to assume that that's all random. And that's where our faith kind of draws a line. This is not random. This is, you know, Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala, his design. So historically, it was very interesting to me to know that if you're familiar with the discussions around al-Falasifah, who used to live, you know, hundreds of years ago in the Islamic world, they used to believe that the universe was static, following Greek ideas in philosophy. And then Imam Ghazali, who was using pure reasoning, you know, was able to prove to them that, no, there should be a moment of creation. He didn't obviously have any access to anything related to astronomy, but he was able to find this by reasoning. So we do have strong reasons to believe that there is a moment of creation. I can't tell 100 percent that this was the Big Bang, but it just looks like this is where everything started. People who talk about randomness, though, talk about how this is basically having no access to that moment of the Big Bang. It is possible that something started it that happened before and you just don't have access to that data. And if you want to follow exactly, very specifically, the scientific method, then, you know, you're reaching the point where science just breaks at some point, because you don't have measurements anymore and you can't reach that moment.
And that's why we call it creation. And other people will probably say maybe there is a physical explanation for it. There is also some mention of the idea of design and how the universe has very specific constants that seem to be chosen specifically for our existence. And if you change those constants, you just won't have the universe we live in. Dr. Aisha, there's a question that I often think about that I've been looking for someone to answer. Hopefully you can answer this. There's a verse in the Quran where Allah describes that one day with Allah is like a thousand days here. And my understanding, maybe this is because I'm watching movies like Interstellar, that in certain places in space, time is relative. And so it could be very plausible that a thousand days equals one day in somewhere in space. And the reason I say that is all of a sudden it feels like potentially, you know, heaven and hell and the day of judgment could be in this realm of our universe. Or am I kind of going off, you know, too much of a tangent? I think you're asking a good question, Hamed. Time is a very, very interesting concept. And one of my favorite novels, actually, about time, it's called Einstein's Dreams. It's by an astrophysicist who's also a novelist who wrote about how Einstein came up with his idea of time being relevant. It's a collection of short stories in which he describes in each one of them how, you know, a scenario in which time is relevant in a different way, relative, sorry, in a different way.
So it is an intriguing idea. And when we when we are maybe close to a very massive object, time will run differently when we're also in a different speed. Time will run differently. But is the connection you made to the surah and to the idea, to the idea and to the ideas about Jannah and Nar, is also brings reminds me of something that's very important. And that's trying to map a scientific fact to something in the Quran or something in the Ghaib, the stuff about Jannah and Nar are things that are we study when we study Aqidah and As-Samiyat. They're called Ghaib because they're supernatural. We don't have access to them. We learn about them from the Quran and from what the Prophet ﷺ told us. So the khabar al-sadiq of the Prophet ﷺ. We don't study them in physics. And I find it very problematic when people try to use physical concepts and equations and speed of light and stuff to try to calculate things like, you know, Isra and Miraj and, you know, very specific things that aren't meant to be understood in a physical sense. So a day, Yawman ʿinda Rabbika, is part of the Ghaib. We just shouldn't be thinking of it in the same tools we use in our lives. Because Allah ﷻ is beyond space and beyond time. Time just falls apart at that moment. And you don't, you know, when we're all gathered in Jannah, we don't think of time in the same way we do now.
Another thing that's important to mention is in the Quran, the Quranic language uses things like alfi sana, and it's known by the Arabs, and I know this from reading tafsir, doesn't necessarily have to be a thousand. A thousand. So just a lot. It just means a lot for tafsir. And it applies to other numbers as well. So Allah knows what's meant exactly by it. But it's similar to what some people do when they try to, you know, to take certain concepts from the Quran, for certain ayat, and just map it directly to something physical. And I feel like it's really problematic because this is not meant to be done this way. Point taken. Jazakallah khair. Dr. Aisha, as I said, I'm very glad that you're on this podcast because I do see you as a role model for me, for my family. And I have a nine-year-old niece who shows up in every episode of Double Take, and she asks our guests questions. So I ask on her behalf. And her question today is, as a nine-year-old, she's asking Dr. Aisha, why is space and the study of space important to us as Muslims? And my uncle keeps telling me to go and study to become a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer. Why should I study space instead? So why? I think if you want in general to get the interest of kids, I would actually recommend less talking and more doing. So with kids nine years old, your niece age, I would respond by engaging the kid with an activity that teaches them why space is fun.
And within the activity, try to bring up some of the concepts and ideas that ties back to the spiritual aspects of looking into space. So, for instance, one of the activities I like is giving the kids a planner or maybe just a sheet with slots for a few weeks, maybe three, four weeks. And then showing the kids how to go outside and make an observation, see the moon and then draw how the moon looks like. If the sun was out, make a note of which direction the sun is and make a note of time maybe. Every week, two, three times, go do the same thing. So that's what you're doing in here is you're teaching the child to do a scientific observation. It's right. That's how people do it. They go outside and they observe the sky and they make a recording. But during this time, the child will start noticing that the moon is changing its shape and it's appearing at different times during the day. So that's where you come in and you explain to your niece that the configuration of the sun and that it's emitting light and the Earth and it's the moon. And why is it changing shape? Why is it following the cycle? And then during also this activity, you have an opportunity to bring in ayat like As-shamsu walqamari bi husban, walqamara qadarnahu manazil hatta aalakal arjunil qadeem, mentioned that the Prophet ﷺ used to look at the moon and make the dua and say, Rabbi wa rabbuka Allah. So aspects of the religion come together with aspects of spirituality and sunnah and science.
And explaining things about the world will change the perspective of the children and subjects feeling that this is something we study in a book, in a textbook or we see in a magazine. We're now actually doing those observations and we know now why people follow the lunar calendar, what our Prophet ﷺ did when he saw those phenomena. And things like that, I think, will probably be more engaging and beneficial for the children. Jazakallah khair. Dr. Aisha, you're an astrophysicist. So I'm sure this next segment of our show is going to be very easy for you. It's the rapid fire. So we have a certain set of questions that we ask our guests and you only have a few seconds, Earth seconds, to answer them. Are you ready? Fire away. Ready. Your favorite planet? Oh, that's easy. Planet Earth. No question. Okay, that was easy. Your favorite reciter of the Quran? It depends. If I want something with a fast pace, Muhammad Ayub is one I listen to a lot. Slower is Sheikh Fusari. That's very classical, mashallah. You have classical taste. What's the last book that you were reading? So the book I've been reading, it's actually a book that I've read before and I wanted to read again because the person who wrote it got a Templeton Prize. His name is Frank Wiltzek or Wiltzek or something like that. And the book is called A Beautiful Question. He's a theoretical astrophysicist and he likes to see beauty in everything in the universe, even in math and things that describe the universe.
So it's a very interesting book about this topic. I'd expect someone of your caliber to read a book like that. How much time have you spent looking into a telescope? Yeah, so modern astronomers don't look directly through telescopes, very rarely. We usually attach instruments that take measurements in photometry or spectroscopy. And I've used survey data. So it was basically automated telescope that takes spectra for large batches of the sky. So we don't really look through the telescope. I've done that. So for courses I was taking specifically during my master's, there was a course where I basically was given an eight inch telescope and then a list of objects. And then we'll go out to the observatory at night and just basically do what amateur astronomers do. And I wanted to take this course, it wasn't quite just because I wanted to learn that skill, because if you want to study astronomy, you can become a professional astronomer. And you don't really need to do this to learn any of this stuff. It's really all automated. Fair enough. And if there was one person in history other than the Prophet, that you would love to meet and discuss, whatever, but including astronomy, who would that be? I actually want to meet with Aisha. I don't know if she cares about astronomy, but I'd like to meet her in person. Why? I mean, I have her name and I've always looked up to her in terms of how intelligent she was.
And she narrated a lot of the Sunnah to us. She was a scholar as well as being the wife of the Prophet. And one final question. You lived in Minnesota and now you're in Canada. Which one is colder? Oh, so I live in Minnesota and I live in southern Ontario. I can tell you that I learned by experience that when I was in Minnesota, that negative 40 Fahrenheit is equal on the scale to negative 40 Celsius. So that's how cold it got in Minnesota. I didn't see that side of the scale here. So today it's I think plus 10 or plus 15 in Sydney. And I am absolutely freezing because I lived in Qatar for eight years. And so anything less than 30 degrees Celsius is considered cold. It is. Yeah, that's yeah. I would love that's like summer here. It's 35 here and I am like it's so hot and I you know, and the AC is broken. It's like the best time to so yeah. Summer yesterday I think it was like 15 or something. Jazakallah khair for your time. And thank you so much for your efforts in this space. And we're looking forward to your article in the coming months. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
Jazakallah khair.
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