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S1E12 - Can Activism Be Guided by the Qur'an & Sunnah? | DoubleTake
The struggle for social justice has shaped many of our conversations in recent years. Issues like police brutality, income inequality, and the oppression of minorities are at the forefront of the minds of many. What does Islam have to say about our role as believers in addressing social injustices? What are the issues that we should be mindful of as we enter activist spaces? How can we navigate these spaces without compromising our faith?
In our season finale, host Mohamad Zaoud talks to Dr. Omar Suleiman, author of the Yaqeen Institute paper “Faithful Activism: A Sunnah Framework,” about how Muslims should approach social activism.
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Transcript
This transcript was auto-generated using AI and may contain misspellings. As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah. The struggle for social justice has been on many of our minds. There are so many issues out there that we care about. Police brutality, we care about things like the plight of indigenous, the plight of minority groups, income inequality. As Muslims, what is our role with regards to these issues? What's the role of these issues in our faith? And how do we navigate some of the issues that arise with regards to some of these causes? Welcome to Double Take, a podcast by Yaqeen Institute that looks into questions and ideas regarding our faith as Muslims that give us pause. Today on the show we have none other than Dr. Omar Suleiman, the founder of Yaqeen Institute, the president of Yaqeen Institute. He wrote the article Faithful Activism and today on the show we're going to discuss just that, Faithful Activism. Sheikh Omar Suleiman, thank you so much for joining Double Take. This is your first episode. InshaAllah there'll be many many more. This is such an important episode but thank you so much for for joining us. JazakAllah khair. I'll let you know if I come back depending on how bad you grill me. I've seen what you've done to some of the others so I'm like already getting like nervous in my seat. You know, honestly I was nervous today because we're in a makeshift studio as you can see. I'm in Melbourne at a friend's studio and the last time I sat down to record with you, Sheikh Omar, you might recall, just so that I can get it right, it was in Qatar and I hired a room in a hotel just so that it could be peaceful away from everyone. I pressed record and it just didn't work so hopefully this time it works inshaAllah. InshaAllah. Sheikh Omar, look you're a Sheikh, you're an Imam. We take faith from you, we take religion from you. What led you to getting
involved in activism and then riding on activism? JazakAllah khair. So it's a very general question but it's a good one inshaAllah to start with. So I think that you know one of the things that's very important is that for a Muslim we act out of this idea of knowledge and action. And when it comes to action, that includes private deeds and public deeds. And typically, you know, the word activism kind of is a bad word sometimes now because it immediately has certain connotations, I'm sure, which you're going to ask me about inshaAllah. But for us it's al-amal as-salihah, right? It's talking about public good deeds and you know khidmah, doing service to society, helping people, standing up against injustice. And these are things that are part and parcel of the sunnah of the Prophet ﷺ, his person alayhis salatu was salam. What was he known for? What did Khadijah radiAllahu ta'ala anha say to him when he got back from Hira after receiving the first revelation? What was the Prophet ﷺ's way of explaining his own credibility and his own service to his people when he stood on as-Safa for the first call? How does Allah subhana wa ta'ala describe him as rahmatan lil'alameen, as a mercy to the world? And laisa albirra an tuwallu wujuhakum qibla almasriqi walmaghrib, the very famous verse in Surah al-Baqarah where Allah subhana wa ta'ala mentions that righteousness is not merely the acts of worship but it is also beyond the prayer and beyond those things, it's also the acts of charity, the acts of justice. And for us as Muslims, the acts of justice are righting the wrongs in society that often are disproportionately remedied by charity. So it's one thing to say that we're going to be there in the khidmah, in the service of those people who are mazlumeen, who are wronged. It's another thing to say we're going to actually try
to stop the wrongdoing that continues to lead people to these situations in which they are hurting. And so that is, you know, personally a motivation. It's to live as much as we can in accordance with the ethics of the Prophet salallahu alaihi wa sallam in society today, both in the global sense and in the domestic sense. And then beyond that, it is to also make sure that we are acting authentically out of the sunnah of the Prophet salallahu alaihi wa sallam, meaning that we are actually doing what the Prophet salallahu alaihi wa sallam taught us how to do. I'm going to get to the point of what activism means for our faith in a few moments, but just for the purpose of this conversation, when we talk activism, what are we talking about? Are we talking about looking after Muslim causes, building mosques, making sure that Muslim children are not oppressed? Are we talking about mainstream issues? Are we talking about the Mexican border? What are we talking about exactly when we talk activism in this context? JazakAllah khair. So we're talking about, I think, all of those things, because all of them are important to us as Muslims, right? So the Prophet salallahu alaihi wa sallam, when he saw people that were in pain, people that were in need, people that were in need, people that were hurting, the Prophet salallahu alaihi wa sallam would support those people. So there are things that obviously are compounded by the Islamic elements. So for example, Palestine, classic example, because we're in the midst of Palestine right now, right? When someone says, is Palestine a Muslim issue? Yes, there's no doubt that al-Aqsa and that the holiness of the land and the place makes it a Muslim issue, but it's also a human issue. So you don't have to be Muslim to care about Palestine, but if you are Muslim, you should care even more for Palestine. So for us as Muslims, when we look to these causes of people that are
being harmed, or when we look to issues around us, sometimes that means advocating for Muslims that are being wronged, and sometimes that means advocating for non-Muslims that are being wronged. But all of that is within the realm, bidden Allahi ta'ala, of an Islamic cause and something that should deeply concern us. Okay, and you're saying it's an Islamic cause. That's a huge statement. As a Muslim, there's so many things to do. There's protecting my prayer, protecting my relationship with the Quran, being good to my parents, family members, etc. How important is activism in that list of priorities that I have as a Muslim? I have my relationship with Allah that I need to protect. There's the tahajjud that I need to pray at night to protect my faith. Where does activism fit in that kind of hierarchy, and how important is it as a Muslim? Why is it a Muslim issue? So everything in the deen is important, and that's why it's important for us not to also think that we can disconnect from salah and those things and downgrade them and say that, well, this is more important. The entire thing is what we learn from the Prophet, salallahu alayhi wa sallam, and the closer we become to balancing ourselves out with the life of the Prophet, salallahu alayhi wa sallam, in regards to the ibadah and the mu'amalat, the acts of worship, and some of the acts that involve society around us, then the more well-rounded and more pleasing we become in the sight of Allah, subhanahu wa ta'ala. But what I would say is that the same Quran, I just take for example, ar'aita allathee yukadhibu biddeen Okay, where Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala initially reveals, and this is in Juz Amma when he talks about people that are not honest, that betray the deen, that belie their deen, and Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says, fathalika allathee yadu'u alyateem wala yuhudhu ala ta'aam almaskeen fawaydu lilmusaleen Right, so Allah addresses the mistreatment of orphans and the neglect of salah in the same
context, the neglect of prayer and the neglect of the orphan in the same context, and so those things are deeply connected. We find in the Quran as well that when Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala mentions qiyam al-layl, when he mentions the night prayer, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala mentions right after that haqqun ma'loom lissa'ili walmahroom that that person during the day is going out there and serving those who are deprived, whether they are asking or whether they are not asking. They're out there and they are serving the people and they are paying extra attention to the creation of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala with their charity. So just like at night they are paying attention to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and rising up in prayer while other people sleep, during the day they are paying attention to the creation of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that other people are not looking towards and they're trying to help them. So as a Muslim, you know, you can't read wa'idu lilmutaffifeen where Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala condemns, you know, economic injustice for example and the cheating within the economic realm and not make a connection. You can't read wa'idha al-mawoodatu su'ilat bi-ayyi dhambin qutilat when the young girl that was buried alive is asked for what crime were you killed and then not make a connection to a young girl that is being mistreated, whether that is at the border of the United States or that is under a bomb of the United States in some other part of the world. You can't read them whether they're Muslim or non-Muslim, whether they're Muslim or non-Muslim, absolutely. SubhanAllah, like what I'd like to understand from you Sheikh, like how, was there a moment where you came to that realization that activism, getting involved in mainstream causes, protecting the interests of Muslims but also non-Muslims who are being oppressed, was there a moment where you know you came to that realization that this is part of my faith or was it just something you were raised with? You know, SubhanAllah, first of all again I depart from the word activism as much as
as sort of the importance of seeing it from the lens of what we learned from the Prophet SallAllahu Alaihi Wasallam. For me that was looking towards my parents. I've spoken about my mother, may Allah have mercy on her, on many different occasions, who was someone that would write poetry on Palestine and Bosnia and at the same time that would teach us that you never look away from that beggar or from that person that's in need on the corner of the road that everybody else is driving past, that you always do something. You know, and I learned it from my father who was someone that would debate on Palestine, he was a professor, he would always be the person that would be at the debates. You know, I remember him debating an IDF general and professors of all sorts and he was the one guy on the other side and he just he handled it so well, MashAllah, MashAllah. And at the same time, you know, he was deeply invested in the cause of inner city, non-Muslim youth and making sure that they also were receiving justice and using what he had of his own education to support them and then at the same time, you know, coming home one day and finding that we're going to have refugees from Kosovo that are going to live with us for the next few months and then where's our car? He donated it to refugees. So for me it was like, that was my example of Islam was looking at my parents and the way that they lived their Islam and how that translated into just such a sincere dedication to upholding the dignity of human beings. Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la mentions that we have honored, we have dignified the child of Adam. And so the way that they lived that was so inspiring to me and in fact, a means of saving my own faith, you know, SubhanAllah, that gave me yaqeen, right, to see the way that they lived their Islam and the way that they were very intentional about connecting that back to the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, that we've learned this from the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, that when you see people that are in need, when you see people that are hurting, you help them, you do what you can to help them and that you come at it from a place of Allah
Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la will ask me about them. That's a very different framing than, you know, just a humanistic framing. No, Allah has given rights to all of these different creations and Allah will ask me about them. And, you know, in an environment where I grew up, by the way, which were very few Muslims around, right, I went to public school my whole life. I had very few Muslims around me growing up. But the way that my parents taught me how to live Islam, how with their example was the most inspiring way of connecting to the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam and really made me love and appreciate the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam so much more. So that's where I come at it from. And of course, by the way, I grew up in Louisiana. I grew up around, I know you're in Australia. Y'all don't have racists in Australia, but we have racists. No, we don't. No, we don't have any. No racists in Australia. But, you know, I grew up seeing clan rallies, like Ku Klux Klan rallies. I saw burning crosses between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. I saw David Duke. I saw some of the prominent racists. A lot of that happened in the deep south in Louisiana and experiencing racism and the ugliness of it, right? Seeing it being carried out both by state and by society. And the way that my father and my mother connected that immediately before hashtags and before social media, before from Ferguson to Palestine, they connected the injustices that they were seeing to the injustices that actually led them out of Palestine and led them out of Palestine in the first place. And all of that to them was from the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, was from a consistent Islamic framing and a consistent prophetic lens upon society. Sheikh, I'm going to get into a couple of juicy questions, but I'm really curious now that you're mentioning your parents and how do you balance between this
activism or kind of fighting injustice and the other more traditional things that we have in our faith, like Ibadah? How do you balance between the two? They're both Ibadah. That's the point, right? So when we're acting out of our own framework, they're both forms of Ibadah. I'm going to use this to plug a book just because it's sitting here, but 40 on Justice was the first series that we did at Yaqeen and it was a Hadith, 40 Hadith of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam on Al-Adl and Jazalallah Khair Sheikh Muhammad Al-Shinawi, it was actually partly his idea and his framing and sort of helping us address this that we have a Deen that is so explicit. No one was more explicit on these things than the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. And if you just want to know how all of this is Ibadah and all of this is part and parcel foundational to the message, listen to Ja'far radiyaAllahu Anhu's speech in Abyssinia. How did he describe Islam to Najashi? It's probably the greatest speech about Islam that you'll ever have. He covered it all, right? So Ibadah is all of that. And so what that means is Da'wah, Da'wah is calling people to Allah out of primarily concern for their hereafter, right? That's what Da'wah is. Khidmah is serving people for Allah primarily out of concern for their dunya, for their worldly affairs. When the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam stood on a safa and he called them to Allah, what was his basis? He said, if I was to tell you that there was something coming to harm you on the other side, would you believe me? Yes, you are a Sadiq Al-Amin. And so what the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam is saying, you know I'm always there for you in regards to your worldly issues. I make sure that you're taken care of. I'm always concerned for you in regards to your worldly affairs. So of course you should trust me and that I'm concerned for your hereafter as well. So you can't tell someone I'm concerned about your hereafter, but I don't care what you live in in this life.
You know, your life could be, you know, for lack of a better expression, right? Hell on earth, right? That's an expression, but I'm trying to save you from hell in the hereafter. No, it doesn't work that way, right? Azeezun alayhima anittum harisun alaykum bil mu'minin wa ra'ufun rahim. Right? So the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam had this rahmah, this care for everyone in regards to the worldly affairs and in regards to their hereafter. But then he had a special, a special mercy, a special place in his heart for those who believed as well. So that is part and parcel of our ibadah, da'wah and khidmah, go hand in hand, calling people to Allah, serving people for Allah, concern for their deen, concern for their hereafter, concern for their worldly affairs, concern for justice. All of these things are packaged in the same way. And I just tell people, subhanAllah, read the speech of Ja'far radiAllahu ta'ala anhu to a Najashi in Abyssinia. That's how the early sahaba understood the mandate of the call of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam from the very beginning. Sheikh Ammar, I'm going to ask you a question that's honestly, like I've faced a situation where I've been asked to get involved in certain causes that are in opposition to my faith. And I'm not very comfortable with it. And I keep thinking of the hadith where the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam says, al-halal ubayyin, haram ubayyin. You know that the halal is very clear and the haram is very clear and in between is the grey areas and whoever falls into the grey areas falls into haram. So I get that there are, like we need to be on the front lines of fighting injustice. But living in Western context, the front lines of injustice, I'm being told are certain things that are against my faith. And it's, for example, the LGBT issue and I want to get into that. But in general, where do I draw the line?
Like how do I interact with causes that I feel are not in alignment with my faith? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think, by the way, the first advice when someone asks me, what's your first advice to activists? I say to them that the haram can never become halal. You cannot make the haram halal. Because what is haram by the Quran, by the Sunnah of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam or with the consensus of the scholars is haram, period. And so you cannot make the haram halal, you cannot champion the haram, you cannot support haram. There is absolutely no way that we should allow the shaitan to fool us into thinking that it ever becomes okay to advocate for or to champion what is in opposition to the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam or the consensus of our scholars over time. So that's one thing that's very important and I think that's why the word activism becomes such a loaded term because when people think activism, they immediately take on a host of issues and they think that they are all inextricable. They think that none of them can be separated from one another. So they're all the same and the reality is that as Muslims, we should be very clear about what we are advocating for. And so if I'm at an anti-war protest and you know I'll tell you that for me the anti-militarism spaces are the strangest spaces because who usually is the most consistent when it comes to the anti-war stuff. I don't know if it's the same thing in Australia but it's people that are just straight up hippies, right? And I don't say that in a derogatory form but it's people that will be involved in the anti-war throughout democratic and republican establishments. They're just always there and sometimes they advocate for
all sorts of things but you know what right now we're here because we're against the war in Iraq. Classical example, you know large-scale anti-war protests. Some of the largest protests in the world happened when the war of Iraq started. Unfortunately the war of Iraq still happened and you know many innocent people were killed and the devastation is still there but the largest protests in the world that came after the war on Iraq to try to stop the war on Iraq. So when you go to anti-war protests you know it's like okay all of these different people are here and it's this huge coalition and this huge group of people and there are all sorts of things but right now look we're here because we're opposed to the war on Iraq. We're here for Palestinian rights. That's why everybody's here right now, right? The same thing could be true you know when it comes to the migrant issue here. SubhanAllah there was a time when family separation first started happening in the United States. Treatment of migrants at the border has been horrible under Obama, under Trump and still under Biden. But there was family separation where you know in punitive measures they were taking the parents away from the children. We actually had situations here in Dallas where children were on the plane and they were writing notes to other passengers, please help me find my mom. It was heartbreaking right like the separation of children from their parents and that was my first time going to the border over and over and over again. I went to you know the border from Texas, McAllen, Juarez, San Diego, Tijuana. We went to the San Diego border right after there was tear gassing of the people on the other side and it's like border protest to border protest because of the treatment of people at the border and some of the protests were definitely strange. There were all sorts of things that were coming about sort of in real time and I think for us it's important to keep
reminding ourselves like look we have to advocate for righteous causes and righteous causes only and we have to be very careful to not let the righteous causes veer into starting to advocate for things that are not righteous causes that are not found in the Quran and the sin of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. Anytime there's the killing of an innocent person you know which happens often you know maybe at the hands of police for example, anti-police brutality protests, things of that sort it gets grave very quick because protests the whole protest scene is very fluid and you know things just just happen right on the spot. It's very hard to organize that but as Muslims it's important for us to keep on getting back to okay what are we here for and we don't take on causes that are not from our deen, not from our tradition. We have to constantly sort of insist upon that that we're here for these particular issues and this is what we advocate for and we never advocate for haram in the process and we make that clear that we don't advocate for haram and that you know while other partners have different motivations for example while they're at some of these different issues maybe they're driven to the table for different reasons and they also are at other tables and maybe even on opposite ends of us on certain issues right. Right now we're here for this issue and that's the issue we're all going to work on but we might be on opposite sides on other issues and that's okay. I should not be expected to advocate for something that is against my principles, against my conscience and that should not be a litmus test for me to be productive in society or serve the poor and serve the marginalized and the oppressed. No, we can do that and we can be true to our Islam and in fact act out of our Islam and I think it's important for us to keep on insisting upon that and to not
to not lose ourselves in that and I start with myself. I start with myself. Don't you feel like there's a risk in rubbing shoulders with people or causes that you may not agree with even if you have like a common cause and you're there for a common purpose. Isn't there a risk that you kind of, we're getting too close to those who you may disagree with? Yeah, absolutely and I think we should try to be judicious and that's something that over time, look I mean the amount of protests that have happened in the United States in the last 10 years, it's like every other day there's a vigil of protest because there's disaster constantly happening right and we should be more judicious. We should be more suspicious of some of those environments. Try to sort of learn from experience about where we invest our relationships and build firmer coalitions, who we build firmer coalitions with. Generally speaking, when it's the issue first and there's like 20, 30, 40 organizations that are coming together for a singular righteous issue, then it's kind of understood that no one is bearing the identity or some of the platform of the others that are at the table for that. The smaller the coalition becomes, the more that it becomes about who's at the table and not what's at the table. I think that some of those smaller groups that we really invest in when it comes to relationships, those are the ones that we should, those types of people or those groups that we invest in long-term, build deep relationship with, should be less problematic and we should be judicious about the optics of an event. Can you just give me examples of those groups that you're talking about just so that I can see? Yeah, yeah. Please. I think, for example, when people think about social justice, they immediately think about just that there's the far left groups, very progressive,
very liberal, very secular, have a lot of issues that we would not agree on. Then when it comes to religion, they think only right-wing evangelical Christian. There's a lot of gray in between. I think probably the groups that we have not built enough with and really try to invest in our relationships with are religious minorities, people that are deeply religious, that have some of the same restrictions, some of the same... The words conservative and progressive and these types of things are often misconstrued because they carry loaded meanings with them, but are quote-unquote socially conservative. They have traditional views on certain things, just like we do, but at the same time, they're very involved in social services. They're very much so called towards areas of justice. They're trying to protect themselves and make sure that they're able to practice their religion freely without being persecuted. At the same time, they are standing up righteously for others that are being persecuted, that are being harmed. I think when it comes to religious minorities in particular, those are the groups that we maybe need to really foster deeper relationships with inshallah to understand that and to work together so that we don't have that. I recently did a conversation with Sheikh Dawud Waleed on sacred boundaries and you can look it up with Sheikh Dawud Waleed's sacred boundaries. He was talking about his own experience right now. He sort of came to certain relationships that he chose to invest more into where there were groups that did not pose as many problematic issues for us as Muslims, but we could work together on righteous issues and shared some of the same concerns and some of the same hesitations
about the hostility towards religion that might be found in some of these circles of social justice. Sheikh Ammar, I get the point. When we're involved in activist spaces, we advocate for issues that are not in contradiction with our faith. I get that point. I want to touch on one issue which is a huge wave across the world, not only in Western societies and that's the LGBT issue. I'm just going to read an excerpt from your article about faithful activism if you don't mind and I want to get your view. Are you still with this particular position in your article or have you changed? I want to understand that if you don't mind. So I'm just going to read an excerpt if you don't mind. So as Imam Dawood points out, this usually comes up specifically regarding coalitions that involve groups that also support LGBT causes that orthodox Muslims find objectionable. While some may distinguish the political from the religious, to ask Muslims to champion any right or cause politically that is in direct violation of divine revelation is unfair, unnecessary and spiritually detrimental. Instead, Muslims should champion just causes that are of benefit to all people rather than specific causes that may compromise their faith. This model proposed by Imam Dawood also gives room for Muslims to not be put in the position of being expected to support every cause of groups that support us and in fact find room to express opposition when necessary. Sheikh Omar what I'm reading in this article is fairly clear.
Has this always been your position? Like are you still on that position or has your experience changed your ideas? And there's a reason I'm going to ask that but I'll ask you later. Sure so yes, you know I'll take my oath and say I swear by Allah that that has always been my position through public and private engagement, through different administrations, through different trends and different issues. This has always been my position on the matter. As Muslims we start from the place of okay here's halal and here's haram right and so what is halal and what is haram is very clear. Now when it comes to what we can champion and here in the specific area of the arena of LGBT where I think Sheikh Dawood Waleed, who by the way you know his writing of towards sacred activism this is like an elaboration of sorts on his writing already because we need to sort of build on that. Muslim scholars that do engage these places or Muslim students of knowledge that do engage these spaces and are trying to give you know some direction in that regard. What I think his statement or his idea here of coalition building gives us is that look when we champion general rights of just causes then that is to the benefit of all people. For example here in Dallas we do every year the homelessness count where it's a very powerful experience. We go out and we count the homeless literally find them in garages on street corners, places where they populate even one or two people that are sort of away from everyone else because they feel threatened. We survey them, we get everything about them right all their information so that we can then feed that to organizations that either advocate for better policies for the homeless or relief organizations. I'm not asking the person that I am serving in that regard
about anything in regards to their morality, their worldview, their religion. Homelessness is part and parcel of the deen so that's a righteous cause and everyone who then falls in the category of the affected, I'm going to advocate for them in regards to that issue. The same thing is true for example with police brutality. If someone is killed by the police unjustly I'm not going to interrogate that person's worldview or their life outside of the police shooting where there was excessive force to then say that there's a problem with the way that policing functions in this country. So those are general issues or specific issues rather for everyone that would be affected by those issues. However what ends up happening is that Muslims, faithful people are sometimes told that you cannot be productive and you cannot participate in the arena of justice unless you champion certain rights or certain issues that are in direct contradiction with your framework, with your deen. That I think is a false dichotomy. I think it's a choice that Muslims should not be forced to make. It's spiritually detrimental. I cannot advocate for something politically, culturally, socially that is in opposition to the deen. I can't do that. That would ruin my akhira. Why would I involve myself in something in the name of Islam that would ruin my Islam and ruin my akhira? So I should not be given that type of a choice to make. Instead I will work for the issues that are of concern to me in accordance with my deen and the people that also might work on those issues I might oppose them on some of those other specific causes. I might actually be on the other side of the table on some of those specific causes also out of a feeling of obligation to my deen. So I think that's the healthy sort of balance here which is do Muslims shy away altogether because they'll
end up having to take on causes, LGBT causes or otherwise, that are in contradiction to their deen. Or do Muslims work with where they can work and work with the spirit of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, the energy of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, the framework of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, the hadith of the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, all of that on the issues that are of concern to us and do such a good job at it, right? That that essentially busies us and becomes our concern and let that be, bi'idhnillahi ta'ala, our way of what the Prophet Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam said on as-safa that if I was to tell you there was something on the other side that was coming to harm you'd believe me because I'm always there for you, right? So we act out of concern for people's deen and dunya and we don't violate our own deen in working to establish the welfare of other people in their deen or in their dunya. I appreciate Sheikh Ammar, you being unequivocal and very clear, so thank you. Why is it then that people get that impression that actually your position is quite different? There are trolls online who, you know, shout from the rooftops that actually that is not your position and your position is in fact, in practice, opposite to what you just said. Well first of all I'm taking an oath by Allah subhana wa ta'ala, this is my position, so any Muslim who wants to say that I'm lying, that's their claim to that, right? So this has always been my position. Now as for what you said, why might some get another impression? First of all, it's not for me to assume the intentions of a person that is criticized. I think some people sincerely criticize me. I really do believe that some people come out against me for what they think is my position because of something they've come across, a video or an image or words that are wildly taken out of context, and that's why they feel like they have to sort of take me on and warn
against me and things of that sort. I understand that and may Allah subhana wa ta'ala reward them for the best of their intentions and forgive them for their misconceptions and forgive them for what they wrongly assume of me and wrongly attribute to me when I clearly don't attribute those things to myself. You know, Imam al-Shafi'i rahimahullah, he taught us something very powerful when someone came to him in the masjid and attacked him and said, Anta shafi'i, are you a shafi'i? He said, yes. He said, innaka fajilun fasiq. He clearly heard things that made him assume that Imam al-Shafi'i, and I'm not Imam al-Shafi'i rahimahullah, let me be clear, I'm not putting myself in that category, but he clearly heard things that made him assume certain things about Imam al-Shafi'i. Imam al-Shafi'i simply said, Allahumma in kana sadiqan, faghfir li warhamni watubu alayya. Oh Allah, if he's telling the truth, then forgive me and have mercy upon me and accept my repentance. In kana ghayra dhalik, and if he's other than that, faghfir li lahu warham huwa tubu alayhi. Then forgive him and have mercy on him and accept his repentance. So sometimes people will sort of criticize me for positions that are not actually mine and attribute those to me because of things that they see or things that they hear that are wildly out of context. And by the way, I just got finished teaching on Umar bin al-Khattab radiAllahu anhu, right? And I said one of the key distinctions of Umar radiAllahu anhu and his initial opposition to the Prophet, salAllahu alaihi was that Umar radiAllahu anhu thought that the Prophet, salAllahu alaihi was dividing families. He bought the propaganda, right? And what that means is that sometimes as Muslims, Allahumma faghfir li qawmi fa innahum la ya'lamun. Oh Allah, forgive my people. They don't know any better. If non-Muslims are reading, you know, we have Fox News in the States. I'm not sure what you have in Australia. But if they're reading that stuff and looking at the clips and the images and the words that are clipped out of context about Muslims, right? They think we all belong to these secret terror cells that are out there to harm them, right? Like because it's very, you know, it's very convincing. So, you know, may Allah forgive anyone that wrongly assumes things
of me and attributes things to me that I don't attribute to myself. However, I'll say that, you know, when it comes to those clips, like for example, there was the rally. So for example, there was over five years ago, actually before Yaqeen even started, there was the murder of innocent people in Orlando, Florida, Pulse LGBT nightclub, right? And at that time, you know, it was done by a Muslim supposedly who did it in the name of ISIS in the name of Islam. There were vigils and press conferences and statements across the country. And, you know, I remember I went to, you know, a press conference at the time. And, you know, I read a statement that was written by a multi-faith coalition, Faith Forward Dallas, that I'm a part of, you know, at that time was at least a part of and co-chair of at the time. And it was a statement that was put together by the group, right? So if someone takes that clip years later and then assigns generality to it, right? Then that can make someone think that, you know, I hold certain things that I don't hold. Or for example, you see the migrant, the border protest, you know, someone might see those things, see some of the things that other people were wearing, see some of the things that other people represent, right, in that, and they could assume certain things. And so I understand and may Allah forgive us all. May Allah forgive us for the times that we are not clear enough. And may Allah forgive others for the times that they assume things of us that are not true of us. But no, I am 100% unequivocal in that it starts from the position of the Quran and the Sunnah in this relationship in regards to everything else, and we can never undermine the Quran and the Sunnah. And I've clarified. So, you know, in that time as well, by the way, there was an article that was written. And it was really disappointing, right? Because it was like I was interviewed on the phone for
over an hour and a half. And I never seemed to learn my lesson with journalists. And then it was summarized in the five paragraphs. And it was like, wait, what? And it totally departed from the phone call. And I issued a clarification on Islam's position, what I meant, what the article got wrong. And it is what it is. The article is still up there. So if someone comes across the article now, right, they might assume that those are my words. And I clearly say they're not my words. Because they were summarized in a certain way. So I say this, that it's important for us to be clear. I take this, Aqi Muhammad, and I pray that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala makes me truthful in this regard, that nothing comes your way except Allah. That it is a means of, a potential means of purification. So if someone criticizes you from a destructive place to hurt you, if someone slanders you, then that's kafaratul dhunub ibn al-lahi ta'ala. That's a form of purification of sins. May Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala allow to receive it that way. And if someone gives you well-rounded criticism, balanced criticism, that's also a way to reevaluate your thoughts and to reevaluate your thinking and to be clearer and to be more judicious maybe of your activism. So that's also a form of purifying your work. And at the end of the day, it's important for us, wa ta'awunu alal birri wa taqwa, ad-dinun nasiha. We give advice to each other, sincere advice to each other. We want to better one another. Some people have attributed positions to me. Another reason is because, Gilby Association, right? So you were in this event with this person. This organization called you for Palestine, and then they invited this person as well. The point is that ad-dinun nasiha, it's upon me to give nasiha to those people as well. Out of wanting well for them, that sometimes people make mistakes, and they're well-meaning people. Sometimes, you know, they insist on those mistakes and they go down a destructive path.
May Allah not make us amongst those that insist on our mistakes and go down a destructive path, but instead that right their course. So we keep on getting better and better insha'Allah ta'ala and trying to better one another by giving sincere advice to each other on a consistent basis. And may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala allow us to be fair with one another and wish well for one another and to grow together bi'nillah ta'ala in the way that's best for the community. JazakAllah khair. Sheikh Ammar, we're going to change gears a little bit and talk about another issue that I feel is potentially a grey area. Activism within government spaces. You gave a prayer in Congress and honestly, I felt a little bit uncomfortable with that. Me as a follower of your work, and I'll tell you why. On one side, it was good that you're actually, you know, a Muslim is within that space and just their sheer presence is positive. But I feel on the other side that having a seat at the table where the table is hostile towards our issues, it's almost like legitimizing the table and legitimizing the people that exist on that table. How would you respond to that? JazakAllah khair. Thank you for bringing it up so honestly and candidly. You never told me you were uncomfortable with it before, so I'll let it go. That you decide to do this on a podcast. Look, first of all, we can disagree on these things sometimes. It's okay. And in fact, I do shura. I try to consult. I try to figure out in some of these situations whether it's best or not. So before I answer your direct question on the Congress thing, just say, for example, you know, one of the big discussions here is like the White House iftar. So I boycotted the White House iftar under the Obama days, actually, because Gaza was getting bombed in 2014. I didn't go.
But then I also tried to say, maybe there are some people that are going, that are going to directly challenge him. My grief would be, or my gripe would be, with those that go and that don't directly challenge him and then make it a point to say that they challenged him because in the midst of Gaza getting bombed, it has to be challenged. Right? So, laysusalat, not everyone should be judged in the same way in that situation. However, I felt like it was from my particular position, I was like, you know, let's make a statement and say we're not going to go. I've actually never been inside the White House, for example. Right? I've been out, I gave a khutba outside the White House, on the White House lawn, which was interesting after Trump announced the embassy move to Jerusalem. And it was very cold. So I remember that khutba because I was freezing while I was giving the khutba. I don't remember anything I said. I just remember that I was really cold while I was giving the khutba outside on the White House lawn. Then there was, again, once again, prior to Yapin even coming into existence, there was the time with me where, you know, I ended up giving an invocation on stage and on the stage were Obama, Bush and Biden. So now a third US president that was on the stage at the time, as well as Ted Cruz and who hates my guts and who always makes the point to portray me as some sort of like a secret terrorist that's trying to undo society altogether. So he hasn't been the nicest person in the world, to put it that way. He ends up on stage. So that incident and what that was, was that we had a protest here in Dallas in the wake of the murders, the police murders of Alton Sterling, SubhanAllah, who was murdered in Baton Rouge, feet away from where my mother is buried, Allah Alhamdulillah. It shook me, like till now when I go visit my mother's grave, that literally the place that he was shot dead is like across the fence from her grave. Just so happens.
And Philando Castile at the time in Minnesota shot in his car seven times in front of his baby girl in the backseat, four-year-old's daughter in the backseat. Just horrible, horrible incidents. So we had a march in Dallas. And at the end of that march, I was in that protest and was one of the people at the front of the protest. And after the protest, a man shot five police officers dead. He didn't, and it's, you know, he shot dead, SubhanAllah, we have something called DART, which is like the public railway system. I'm not sure if you have the public transportation in Australia, like the subway system, right? So there's like, just imagine like five security guards getting shot dead, right? Because they were wearing a uniform and this was a protest against police brutality. So I was asked by the city of Dallas to give an invocation that this should be a unifying moment where we hold the victims of police brutality as well as condemn what just happened, right, in a similar space. And we really have to bring the city together because this could really tear us apart. I agreed to the invocation. And I find out the night before, by the way, all these presidents are coming. Okay. So I was like, okay. So the choice is then do I withdraw myself or do I write my invocation in a way that's not disrespectful to the occasion, but that sort of gives somewhat of a message, right? So that's what I tried to do. I can totally understand why someone would disagree with me on that. I sought shura. It was sort of, it's a decision I have to make in a few hours. I'm not going to say that it was the right decision. And may Allah forgive me if it was the wrong decision. When it comes to the Congress invocation, you know who the first person to give invocation in Congress was, Muslim, to give invocation in Congress? Imam Siraj Al-Wahaj. So it's kind of legendary, right? Imam Siraj gave the invocation in Congress. And he told me, he said, subhanAllah,
he said that the attacks that came on him after he gave the invocation in Congress, like everything changed from that day on. And that was the same for me, by the way. As soon as I finished giving the invocation in Congress, the attacks that I got, it was like they were ready to press a button. I mean, it was character assassination to the extreme. Front page of Fox News for some time on the TV station. Our friend Ted Cruz, once again, out there attacking and things of that sort. That was a nightmare, right? But to go back to your question directly, the invocation of Congress actually came through a local Congress person. So the way that that works is that every Congress person, or at least a group of them, have the privilege of inviting a faith leader in their district to give the invocation. Okay. So my Congresswoman, Eddie Bernice Johnson, who I actually had worked with to be the first co-sponsor of, or to be the co-sponsor of the first bill for Palestinian rights ever legislated in Congress, which is called the McCullum Bill, against the detainment of Palestinian children. So she's a co-sponsor of that bill. And someone that I've worked with on numerous issues. So she invited me because I had just gotten back from Christchurch, New Zealand, after the terrorist attack in Christchurch, New Zealand. She invited me to give a prayer specifically about the innocent and about worshippers. And so you'll even hear that tone, right, about this was on the heels of the synagogue shooting in Philadelphia, and then Christchurch, New Zealand, where the shuhada, we had over many people, by the way, from Australia, came. Sheikh Shadi, Hafidhullah, many other people, Sheikh Yahya Ibrahim, some people that are beloved to you and me came to New Zealand at the time. So she had told me right after that, she said, by the way, I expedited the invitation because I want you to sort of come in and give an invocation right after coming back from Christchurch, New Zealand.
So I took that opportunity. Again, I can totally see, like I understand, like, do you do you take that opportunity or not? You got to understand, Mohamed, that, you know, like I go back to the invocation that I gave where the presidents were on stage. You know, George Bush in particular, like has harmed my own family, like my extended family deeply. Right. People that are very beloved to me. We're in the city of Dallas where the Holy Land Foundation, the HLF5, who are like family to me, were unjustly put in prison at the request of Ariel Sharon and one of the worst civil rights abuses in history. Right. Like it's not easy. And you're standing in front of George Bush and Ted Cruz. It is not easy. And making a prayer in Congress. Like, was it worth it? Honestly? Yeah, I hope so. Inshallah ta'ala. I hope that it was still an opportunity to put out a positive message, inshallah ta'ala, and to have some things that were challenging to what they stood for embedded within the invocations. But I think that those are those are judgment calls. And even with myself, I could argue both ways. And I appreciate the conversation that you and I are having right now. Right. Is it worth it? Is it not worth it? Is this is this summary of 10, 12 conversations I had before each of those engagements with teachers and people I respect, before I made my judgment call. And by the way, I've turned down a lot of things that I don't care usually to publicize. Like, for example, the Democratic National Convention. Turned it down this year, in fact, this past time around. But then I did do the Texas Democratic Convention. I gave the invocation of the Texas Democratic Convention, because that was at the height of the children being put in cages.
And I made it a point to mention Gitmo at that time and to talk about moral consistency and the children around the world who don't deserve to be killed under American bombs or put in American cages. So I used the opportunity because I thought that it was it was the right time to do so. And why did you turn this one down? Why did you turn the DNC? I think right now, I mean, and this is part of sort of evaluating as time goes on. Right now, I'm very like allergic to partisan spaces with the Democratic Party at this point. And there are certain things like local things that I might do in terms of like, come give the invocation, come share a few words and always try to push it a bit with what I say. And my whole thing, my menhage, if you will, my methodology in this regard, is that if you go to a space, challenge them on their own supposed principles. So if you're with, you know, people that are progressives, right, and claim to be progressives, why are they progressive on everything but Palestine? So push them on Palestine, push them on Gitmo, push them on the things like in accordance with the things that you claim to stand for. Why are you excluding Muslims and why are you excluding people in this regard? And then if I'm in a more Republican space and where people are conservatives, then I will push them on why their religious freedom claims seem to include everyone but Muslims. So I'll push them hard on those things about how are you on the one hand claiming to be persecuted for your religion, but on the other hand, before persecuting religious minorities in this country. So pushing them on their inconsistencies is something that's important there. But it changes from place to place.
So Sheikh Omar, what is your advice for someone in this space? You know, it is murky waters in some areas. It's very clear in others. But what is your advice in general, someone who's involved on the front lines of these issues? Yeah, so JazakAllah khair. The first thing I'd say is that the murkiest place can be your heart. Purify your intentions before everything else. Everything that you do should be for the sake of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. And if you're doing it for the sake of Allah, then you're trying as much as you can to do it in a way that's in accordance with the way of the Messenger salallahu alayhi wasalam. So purify your intentions. That's number one. Number two, when you are advised or when you face difficulties along the way as you are doing this type of work, ask how you can use that as a means of getting close to Allah. You know, one of the things that I often hear from people is, you know, I'm tired. Working with Muslims is hard. This is thankless work. You try to do the right thing and people just beat you up for it. It's like the person that becomes a board member of a masjid and then never wants to set foot in the masjid again after they finish their term, or becomes a volunteer in the masjid or volunteer in some cause. And I think of a hadith from the Prophet salallahu alayhi wasalam, Alladhi yukharitun nas wa yasbiru ala adhahum khairu min alladhi la yukharitun nas wa la yasbiru ala adhahum The one who mixes with the people and tolerates the hardship in the process is better than the one who isolates himself from the people and does not tolerate their hardship. So one of the ways that Allah is going to test you in your intention is that you're going to face difficulties trying to do good work. And you have to take that as a means of getting you closer to Allah, that Allah is making you sure that it's only for his sake and he's putting you through that test for that reason. And so, you know, when someone says, I'm not doing this anymore because I'm sick of people. Well, were you doing it for people in the first place?
So let not your heart be murky. Let your intentions be purified always. Take the hardship that comes along the way and grow, grow, grow, grow. Listen to people. Listen to nasiha. You know, we talked, you gave me nasiha in the course of this podcast, whether you intended it that way or not. There is always something to consider. Even when someone is giving you advice or giving you, you know, critique in bad faith or if they're doing it in a very harsh way, you know, Imam Al-Ghazali, he talks about this idea of listening even to your enemies. If they say something about you that might be true of you, then consider it because, you know, if it's true, then you want to disconnect yourself from it. So consider what is said to you, seek out advice, seek out mentorship, constantly listen to your brothers and sisters and try to get better. Try to make sure that your work is more pleasing to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala as you go along the way. So humility is so important in this regard. So stay humble and Allah will humble you along the process. Stay humble, accept it and stay humble inshaAllah ta'ala and try to get better. JazakAllah khair. I'm going to ask you one final question. Just bear with me here. My niece, nine-year-old niece who pops up in every Double Take episode, she has a great uncle who basically has shared with her the importance of activism. Fine, we get that, we get that, you know, it's actually a Muslim thing. What advice would you have for her? She's nine years old, she's about to embark on this kind of space, this activism space. And the causes that are going to pop up in her time, say in five, ten, fifteen years time, are probably even more, some of them are going to be more challenging than the ones we're facing now.
What is your advice to my nine-year-old niece who is about to embark on her journey of protecting her faith and also getting involved in social justice issues? So I guess my conversation with your nine-year-old niece would look a lot like my conversation with my 11-year-old daughter, whose father is not as great as your niece's uncle, inshaAllah. I would say to her to first and foremost always put her deen first, put her deen first and never relinquish her deen. That her greatest activism is insisting upon her existence, her deen, and not letting anyone take that away from her. And then I would say to her that when you see someone that is being mistreated, when you see someone that is being harmed, when you see someone that is poor, when you see someone that is oppressed, when you see the homeless person on the corner of the street, when you see your Muslim brother or sister on TV or through your screen that is living in absolute misery, that you have a responsibility to those people, that you don't just look away, that your deen does not allow you to just say, oh well, they live in Iraq or Afghanistan or Palestine and I live here, or that person is poor and I'm not poor, so oh well, I feel sorry for that person, ya haram. No, you have to feel an obligation towards those people that are being oppressed and that are in poverty and that's part of your deen as well. Sheikh Ammar, thank you so much for joining Double Take. For those who are interested in the article by Sheikh Ammar, it's on yaqeeninstitute.org. I'm sure it's pinned right to the top, I'm just joking, but feel free to read Sheikh Ammar's work on yaqeeninstitute.org. JazakAllah khair.
JazakAllah khair. Thank you for putting me in the hot seat, my chair is burning now. May Allah forgive me. The hot seat is, we're about to do the hot seat now, which is the rapid fire. Are you ready for it? I thought hot seat was over, I thought you already got me in the hot seat. Alright, just a moment, let's go rapid fire. Alright, Sheikh Ammar, we're going to ask you a set of, a few questions, you've only got 10 seconds to answer them. The first one is, your favourite qara of the Quran, your favourite reciter. My favourite reciter of the Quran, easy, Maher Al-Mu'aykali. I absolutely love praying behind him, and I prayed behind him in the haram for the first time in hajj, 7 years ago, and I fell in love with him. He was reading surah al-waqia, and so I even tried to imitate him with my recitation. I do a very poor job, but I absolutely love his recitation, Sheikh Maher Al-Mu'aykali. Oh, we're going to have to get a recording of your recitation. Alright, Sheikh Ammar, if there was one person who has passed away, and he can't be the Prophet, but you'd love to have dinner with them, and sit there, and have a rebuttal. Asked discussion with them, who would it be? So this is someone that I did not already know, right? So someone that along the way, right? Someone who, it could be from history, yeah. I would say that that would probably be Uthman ibn Affan radiAllahu anhu. I love Uthman radiAllahu anhu. I absolutely love Uthman radiAllahu anhu. And it's actually my first halaqa. My first halaqa in my life was about Uthman radiAllahu anhu, because I felt like he was so wronged. Like, you know, in the capacity of this discussion of activism, he did so much for the ummah, but it's like Abu Bakr radiAllahu anhu,
Umar radiAllahu anhu, and then Ali radiAllahu anhu. It's like Uthman radiAllahu anhu gets outshined. And I think that's part of how Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala made his work so pure, is that everything he did for the ummah, and he was so wronged, prohibited from the same things that he did for the sake of Allah for the ummah. And that's why the Prophet salAllahu alaihi wa sallam said, should I not be shy from a person that even the angels are shy from? So if the Prophet salAllahu alaihi wa sallam would sit up in the presence of Uthman radiAllahu anhu, I would love to meet Uthman radiAllahu anhu and sit with him and just tell him like, I appreciate you, JazakAllahu khairan. I appreciate you for all that you did for the ummah. What's a question you'd ask him? I'd ask him for advice on how to deal with slander. Because he was just slandered so much. SubhanAllah, this is something that when people say things of us that are untrue, it hurts us. It does hurt us, we're human beings. And especially when those things are not true of us, right? And with Uthman radiAllahu anhu, the way that the slanders about Uthman radiAllahu anhu spread, and he was accused of things that stood in complete opposite of everything that he had done. Like nepotism, accused of money, misappropriating money. And he's, you know, what does he say? Like, I was the one that expanded them. I financed the expansion of the Prophet's Slayed Salaam Masjid. Like I was the one when they prohibited him from drinking from the same wells that he purchased. Fee sabirillah. So I would ask him for advice. Like, what would you say to someone who deals, who has dealt with just a tiny portion of what you have dealt with,
and who has done a tiny portion of what you have done of khair? I would ask him for nasiha, for advice for his little brother. Like, yeah, Uthman, you dealt with so much, you know, in that regard, like, what would you give, what would you advise me in this regard? And Sheikh Ahmad, if there was someone who is alive, who you would like to have dinner with, who would that be? Actually, Sheikh Bilal Asad, Australia. Oh, really? Why? I'm in his hometown, by the way. I love Sheikh Bilal. I can't believe I never met him. I love Sheikh Bilal. My kids listen to him all the time. That's one thing, and I heard his voice all the time. But I'll tell you that when I saw the interview, because I connected with Sheikh Bilal recently, and I hope he won't mind me mentioning this, inshallah he won't. But I heard the interview about the death of his son, Rahim Allah Ta'ala, and the pain and the way he just explained his trial and tribulation in that regard. And that interview, it was an Australian interviewer, by the way, I don't remember the platform, but it was viral. And I actually asked Sheikh Shadi for his number and I reached out to him and we connected and I told Sheikh Bilal, I said the first, and so now he's going to hold me to it. And so I'll be in Australia soon, inshallah. Let me put it to you that way, because I told him, I said, as soon as COVID is over, I really want to come see you because I absolutely love that man. Like, you know, the souls are like conscripted soldiers. I feel like the love that I have for him is like a brother that I've known my entire life. I love that man. And subhanAllah, I never got to sit with him in person. So, yeah, so when you see him, give him a hug for me. I will, don't worry. And tell him that I love him for the sake of Allah. He knows that as we've been in contact.
And inshallah, I hope that we'll be able to connect soon. Inshallah, I'll drive you from the airport. Three last questions. No, after this interview, I'm not talking to you anymore. I want to see Sheikh Bilal, I don't want to hang out with you. Three last questions. Your favourite breakfast? I love like omelettes, veggie egg white omelettes, like just omelettes and hash browns. I mean, it's very American, right? But, you know, if I get into the Arabic foods, I'd say it's baba ghanouj. Good baba ghanouj is pretty awesome. You know, like when you're in the Arab world and, you know, when I go to Jordan all the time, just kind of go around the corner and get some fresh falafel to dip in some hummus and some baba ghanouj. That's pretty good. And the last book that you read? Bismillah. Not another plug, surely? No, no, no, this is not my plug. It's actually, I was actually showing this to some of the people yesterday. This is a book by Dr. Hatem Bazian called Erasing the Human, Collapse of the Post-Colonial World and the Refugee Immigration Crisis. Very good book by Dr. Hatem Bazian. And final question. If I was to say an embarrassing masjid moment, and I'm sure you've had many masjid moments in general, but an embarrassing masjid moment, what does that look like in the life of Sheikh Hama? Oh, where do I start? I'll just share with you the first one that comes. And it wasn't, it was, I was giving khutba in my old masjid in New Orleans. You know, so the women's section is above the men's section, like a mezzanine, right? So if a woman is at the front of the women's section, she's like almost right above the menbar, okay?
And the phone rang while I was giving khutba, and it rang for a while. And then I said, brothers and sisters, if you can please put your phones on silent. She was an older lady. She answered the phone. And, hello, hello. You know, she just had a full on conversation. And I turned red. I was like, I don't know what to do with the situation. So do I like, you know, get a little harder with her or do I just let it go? So I decided to just kind of wait for the sisters. Like you heard some sisters get into like an uproar over it. So that was one. I know you asked for one, but this is not embarrassing, but I'll say one of the most beautiful moments, which was a crazy moment, was in the same masjid. There was a man that walked in with a military uniform, Keith. I put a picture of him one time online. I'll tell a story properly one day, but Keith was a soldier. He walked in with his full uniform and his guns. And everybody ran away. And I just kind of froze up and I was sitting and I was leaning on the menbar. And I looked at him and I was just like, ashhadu an la ilaha illallah, wa ashhadu anna Muhammadun rasulullah. I was sure he was about to kill me. Instead, he took me, he said, I need to talk to somebody. We spoke on the side. He had just come back from Iraq. And he said, what those people had, what those people had, I want. Isn't that beautiful? He said, I need to know your religion, your faith, what those people had, I want. And I just got back. And so he actually took shahadah that night, full uniform and everything. He took shahadah that night. And when the people, so this is the funny part of it. When someone takes shahadah, what does everyone do? What did they do? In Australia, I'm sure everyone shouted out Allahu Akbar.
And he like, you know, like he was about to like start shooting. And so I said, well, calm down. I was like, you know, relax. That's how we congratulate. And he cried and he said to me on my shoulder, he said, he said, when we used to hear that in Iraq, that meant run in Iraq, more precisely, that meant run. And he said, now God is calling me to him with those words. So it was a beautiful moment. Sheikh Ammar, Jazakallah Khair. Thank you so much for your time. And inshallah, we'll do another episode very, very, very soon. Barakallah Hafiz. Jazakallah Khair. It was a pleasure.
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