As-salamu alaykum wa rahmatullah. Jealousy is a complex emotion. It can come with feelings of anger, sadness, fear, humiliation, pettiness and more. Nobody wants to feel jealous, yet the times we're living in seem to make it easier than ever to become consumed by wanting what others have. What causes us to feel jealous toward others? What are the psychological and spiritual harms of jealousy and how can our relationship with Allah subhanahu wa'ta'ala make sense of these feelings? Welcome to Double Take, a podcast by Yaqeen Institute about the questions and ideas around Islam and Muslims that give us pause. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your favorite podcast. If you like what you hear or want to share feedback, you can let us know directly using the link in the show notes. Today I had an eye-opening discussion on the harms and causes of jealousy. I spoke with Sister Sara Sultan and Sister Najwa Awad, co-authors of the Yaqeen Institute paper, Why is Everyone's Life Better Than Mine? Protecting Yourself from the Dangers of Comparison. Sister Sara Sultan is a licensed professional counselor who has practiced therapy for over 10 years. She's got a master's degree in mental health counseling and she's an instructor with Mishka University. Sister Najwa Awad is a psychotherapist, also with over a decade of experience counseling children, adults, and families at her practice, Amanah Family Counseling. She has a master's in social work and a postgraduate certification in advanced trauma treatment. Sister Sara and Sister Najwa are both fellows at Yaqeen Institute and this is their second time joining us for an episode of Double Take. Sister Sara and Sister Najwa, As-salamu alaykum and welcome back to Double Take. Wa alaikum assalam, wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu. We're really happy to be here. Jazakumullahu khair for having us.
Yeah, thank you so much for having us. Jazakumullahu khair for joining. Sisters, you were our debut guests on Double Take in season one and you opened my eyes to the subject of trauma, how prevalent it is and how we can affect our relationship with Allah subhanahu wa'ta'ala. Today, I'm asking you to do the same thing but on another common issue, that is jealousy. But before we do that, I need you guys to define what we're talking about. The more I research into this topic, the more I see, I think conflicting definitions, what is envy, what is jealousy. So I'm hoping to get to the bottom of it. In a sahih hadith, the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam said, as narrated by Abu Huraira, that beware of hasad, for it devours good deeds just as fire devours wood or grass. I've seen hasad translated as envy and sometimes jealousy, and I've heard that there's both good hasad and bad hasad. So before we get started, what is jealousy and why is it a problem? So it can be confusing differentiating between the two. There's so many definitions for jealousy and there's so many definitions for envy. In general, jealousy is when you want something that somebody else has. There is an underlying fear of some kind of loss. Maybe that you are losing something that you could potentially gain or sometimes in relationships, it could be fear of losing person. It's very common and it's not necessarily a bad thing. We know even in Islam that there are some examples of jealousy that are okay. We know that protective jealousy, you know, when you know, you feel threatened by someone maybe coming at your spouse. That is a normal response and that's something because we care about it. We want to protect our relationship.
We also know that the Prophet said that two permissible kinds of jealousy is when someone has money and they're spending it in the cause of Allah or when someone has knowledge and they're teaching it in the cause of Allah for the sake of Allah. So jealousy is not necessarily bad. It can be but the difference between jealousy and envy is envy usually there's an element of malice. So with jealousy, it's you know, I want what this other person has with envy. It's I want what this other person has but I don't want them to have it. And so or I don't mind if it's taken away from them. So there's a different there's a different feel to it. And a lot of times with envy, there's there's stronger feelings of anxiety or anger or resentment shame because it's a slippery slope. Jealousy is common, you know happens to almost everybody but envy is when it starts to become disruptive when we might be inadvertently giving hasad to somebody else and doing something inadvertently giving hasad to somebody else and doing harm whether we meant need to do the harm or not, but also just as much it as a potential harm it can cost to other people can also cause harm to ourselves because ultimately we're the one carrying that feeling that that really doesn't feel good. Would it be fair to say then if I'm understanding you correctly that jealousy is almost like a first step to to envy like it's a it's a precursor because it's I'm feeling like I want what someone else has but the next step to that is I want that but I don't want them to have it if I understood you correctly. It is I don't think like cognitively people are thinking in you know in steps, but certainly it would be hard. I don't think a person can be envious without being jealous first. Jealous. Okay.
And when we talk about hasad in the Quran or in the hadith we're talking about envy which is basically the the malicious feeling and wanting something what someone wanting what someone else has basically without them having it. Yes, and that's the one that we are cautioned against, you know, if we look at like Habil and Kabir which was the first and it happened from from from jealousy where Kabir killed Habil out of out of jealousy, but even when you take it a step further back and you look at Shaitaan and that whole interaction between him and Allah and why we were brought to Earth, but you know Shaitaan says, you know when he was asked to prostrate to Adam says I am better than him, you know, you you created me from fire and you created him from clay. So there is arrogance a lot of times we focus on the arrogance that are certainly arrogance there, but there's jealousy there as well. Yeah, and you know, and I and I think that that's such a really beautiful example when we're thinking about Habil and Kabir and the dangers that come from from jealousy that can then lead to envy that can lead to such a huge sin as as even murder in this case and not just any murder but murder between two brothers and one of the things that I think is so powerful in that story is where was Kabir's focus his focus was on what his brother was granted right what favor from Allah subhana wa ta'ala his brother was granted rather than focusing in on his own efforts and the importance of his own efforts, right because even when he's like giving a sacrifice to Allah subhana wa ta'ala he's giving the worst of what he has but he's not taking accountability. He's not thinking. Okay. What can I do to improve my you know, my opportunities? What can I do to make to create changes instead all of the focus and attention is outward. It's external and that's really where jealousy stems from
is when we are so overly focused on other people and their lives and the favors that we perceive in their lives rather than looking internally and looking at our own lives through a lens of gratitude or through a lens of also, what can I do differently? And so I think that's a very powerful example that that network brought up. Jazakallah khair. I can understand like if someone acts on jealousy and is malicious then yeah, sure. It's haram and it's like it hurts you, it hurts the other person etc. But in your experiences, like what are the tacit harms? Like what are the harms within myself when I feel jealous like psychologically? What is the problem with feeling jealous? Not acting upon it, but just feeling it. That's such a great question, Mashallah, because jealousy can lead to so much internal instability, right? Where it leads to a lot of detriments to your self-esteem. When you are comparing yourself constantly to others, then you feel like you'll never measure up because the reality is that you can never fully compare yourself to other people because you don't know fully what their circumstances are like. And so when we compare ourselves to other people, we don't do it with all of the data points. But when we look at our own lives, we are looking at all of the data points but focusing in on the negative data points. And so it naturally will make us feel less than. We feel like we are not enough or we feel like things are coming to us as a punishment from Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. So it impacts our view of ourselves and it also can impact our relationship with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala and it can impact our interpersonal relationships with other people because when you feel badly about yourself and you're critical of, you know, there's a lot of hypercriticism, then the natural next step is to be critical of other people, whether it's that person that you're jealous of or whether it's the person that you care about in your life.
When you're used to looking for flaws, naturally, you're going to start to look for flaws in your relationships as well. So it's like this trickle-down effect where it can sour everything and so it's something to definitely be addressed. Yeah, it's such a terrible feeling and nobody likes to experience jealousy. It's one of those like really shameful things that nobody likes to own up to it. And so struggling with that, it feels very bad. But yes, so it can impact a person and you know, brain studies show that it affects, it releases stress hormones. So it sets people into a fight-or-flight response, which is, you know, kind of almost like a trauma response. It really creates a lot of emotional instability. And so it takes us away from being mindful in the present, from focusing on ourselves. When people get in that loop of being jealous, it's like they can't help themselves, but they just kept keep getting reeled in. And with the example of social media, like the more that they fall into like that quicksand of the jealousy, the more they spend time on social media, the less time that they're able to do their day-to-day activities, the less time they're able to focus on themselves and make themselves better. And so they feel like they're not doing well with their lives because they're not doing like, they're just kind of stuck glued to social media and kind of like not stalking, but just not being able to let go, but also because they're not able to focus on their day-to-day things. And like Saurav said, it really does affect relationships. If you see somebody online and you know, their kids are doing wonderfully, but your kids are struggling or you know, you're having troubles in your marriage and you see someone, you know, posting pictures of married life and them having a great time. Then sometimes you start to create fights that are not based in reality. It's kind of because your mind is somewhere else. And so
you're taking that and this person is just like, wait, where did that come from? It just creates a whole host of unnecessary issues. And then lastly, like Saurav said, it also impacts your relationship with Allah. You know, jealousy, when it's kind of like, oh, I wish what this person has, that's one thing. But you know where it gets really dangerous, where it's like, you know, I wish Allah had given that to me. And that's where it becomes like a very tough situation. It's almost like Allah is unjust, you know, like he didn't give me what, is that what it is? Well, yeah, why? I mean, you're starting to question how Allah gives out his bounties and his blessings, which is problematic. You know, when we look at it that Allah is the provider and he can give to everyone, you know, in abundance without any limitations. And here we are almost putting limitations of like, there's like a scarcity mentality, you know, like, oh, if this person has all this, then Allah can't give it to me. Which, as you can imagine, is putting limitations on Allah. And then when we don't have, when we don't have like a positive assumption of Allah and his wisdom and his decree, that's going to impact our spiritual health, but and also our like our relationship with him as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's such a powerful point when we're thinking about the impact spiritually that jealousy can have. Because, you know, like Najwa, you were saying this idea of, you know, why did Allah give it to them? He should have given it to me, right? There's almost this expectation that we know better than Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. And nobody consciously thinks that by the way, you know, like jealousy is a very normal emotion. Every single person has experienced it at some point in their lives. And it's very, very, it's very common. A lot of us experience it on a daily basis. But the point
of all this is to try and keep it in check to catch the thought process, right? So if the thought process is, you know, like, oh, you know, I wish I could have that too. Okay, that's fine, you know, transform it into a dot. That's what the understanding that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is unlimited in his ability to provide for you, to give you whatever you desire and it's not even a drop in the ocean, right? But the danger is when that thought becomes transformed to something that could be anger toward Allah for not giving it to you, you know, looking at it from the lens of, you know, that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, a better place to put it would have been with me. I am more deserving of that. And then and so that can sometimes lead to doubts and questions about Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala as Al-Hakeem, right? That Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is the most wise. If we truly believe Allah is the most wise, then we can believe that there is a reason why I don't have this right now. It doesn't mean I won't have it in the future. I can ask for it. I can work toward it. I can make da'at for it, right? But having that understanding that if I truly believe that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is the most wise, that he has true like just infinite wisdom, then I believe that there is a reason why this person has this right now and I don't and so that meant changing that mentality can be very helpful in limiting the damage that naturally occurring jealousy can have. You know, this is the most nuanced conversation I've had on jealousy. So I appreciate you getting into the weeds. Like when I think of jealousy, I think of okay, I'm trying to keep up with the Joneses. I'm always comparing myself to people better than me and I remember the hadith of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam saying, انظروا الى من هو دونكم في أمر الدنيا that look at those who are worse off, not those who are better off in this life, فإنه أحرق because it's more pure for the heart. Now, I understand that jealousy is that it leads to this, like I feel discontent
with my life and I never, I'm never content. I'm never happy with what I have. I get that but there was one thing, sister Najwa, that you mentioned before which for me is new and it sounds a lot, a lot more serious than I originally anticipated jealousy and you said that it puts you into some sort of loop and not only are you no longer present in your life, it just sounds much bigger than I had originally anticipated. Do you mind just describing that? Like what is that loop that you're talking about and what are the evils of this jealousy beyond feeling unhappy or feeling that concept of discontent? Definitely and I think this is one of the hidden things about jealousy. So if we were to take a very moderate approach, say for example, somebody goes online on social media one hour a day and during that time, you know, and one hour for a lot of people is it's not that much and during that time they feel jealous. They're looking at people's houses. They're looking at people's travels and all that and the research shows that I think it's about 60% of people when they go on to social media feel like other people have better lives than them. So if we were to take that one hour that they are scrolling and just really upset that they don't have what the other people have and this is an hour that they could be doing something else. You know, if it's someone who is jealous of like someone getting higher education master's or PhD, this is this could be time that they could be spending studying for an entrance exam or if they are looking at other couples, although I wish you know, my marriage was that good. That's an hour. They could be spending with their with their spouse, you know, bettering their relationship with their spouse. So that one hour a day say you multiply it by seven. That's seven hours a week.
The seven hours a week of that where the person is investing time in something outside of their control and I really do believe in the saying that the grass is green where you water it. The more you're spending looking at other people that takes time away from you being able to reach your full potential and I feel like that's one of the biggest travesties is that sending spending all this time looking at what other people have where you could be reaping that the reward whatever it is that you do whether it's Quran or reading or setting up some kind of program seven hours a week. That's about you know, almost 30 hours a month and 28 hours a month. That's a lot of time that a person could be potentially benefiting and it's not even time they enjoy this is time that that's really disruptive and within themselves causing turmoil within within themselves and then when they get off social media, then we already talked about all the repercussions that it has in relationships and outside of that time. In practicing psych and counseling. I'm sorry. It's a bit of a personal question and you don't have to answer it. But in practicing over the last 10 years both of you have you seen like what's the worst thing that you've seen where you've you've drawn the conclusion that the root cause was jealousy. Is that a fair question? Am I allowed to ask that? Yeah, sure. I mean, you know as long as our you know, we're very careful in terms of maintaining confidentiality of our clients, but jealousy is such a common issue that it touches so many lives. And so, you know, like I I know in a lot of marriage counseling that that I've done it's you know, it's been a very clear issue. I you know, I remember very clearly a discussion with with a couple where the wife, you know was basically on the verge of divorce. She you know, she had initiated a divorce
process and the reason was actually because of the shows that she was watching made her feel really dissatisfied with her husband made her feel like you know, they're mad. But what they they didn't to some extent identified what shelus like they used to call it. Now, this is the antidote, right? When you talk about shelus it means I'm a professional. Now after we talked about attraction and desire for you know, having children. And you know there's gotta be truly love for them. And that tells me that there's gotta be some 귀여운 color for me in that theory of living with. And next. So I tell people the answer. Right and that's really important because you know, when PJ told me a story of So all of the media, we have to be really careful about the media consumption and the impact that it can have on us and our expectations of the people in our lives, you know, subhanAllah. And so, and then even like individual clients that, you know, that I've worked with, there have been, there's just a lot of dissatisfaction in terms of seeing other people and their achievements. And especially somebody who maybe they were in a relationship with in the past, for example, that's always a really hard one is seeing somebody that you used to be in a relationship with seeing their again, social media, right? Because how else are you going to find out about this person? It's typically through social media. So you see their social media profile. You see that they've reached this new step in their career, or you see that they have gotten married before you have gotten married. And it leads to such a horrible feeling in the pit of your stomach and so much discomfort. And it leads to you beating up on yourself, wondering what's wrong with me, that this person who did me so wrong, could progress in life before me, like, why would Allah choose them over me? Right? And so that definitely something that's very common that I've seen as well. It's very painful.
You guys writing your paper about kind of the deep causes of jealousy, and you talk about low self esteem. My question is, what comes first? Is it that I'm feeling low self esteem? Therefore, I'm feeling more jealous. And when I'm scrolling on Instagram, you know, it's kind of just feeding that cycle? Or is the jealousy instigating that self esteem? So almost everybody experiences jealousy. And I think they did a study and they said, like, within the past year, usually, you know, 80% of women will report that they experienced jealousy in the past year, and I think 70% of women. And some say that women experience it more and others say that, no, perhaps they might be more in tune with their emotions. And so they can they have, you know, deeper insight and can pick up on it quicker. So it's very common. However, self esteem has been found to make it worse. And you know, where does low self esteem come from? It can come from a lot of things. It can be from perceived failures or rejections during childhood, it could be parenting styles, if your parents were very rough with you. It can be history of trauma can contribute to low self esteem. So just because someone is jealous doesn't necessarily mean they have low self esteem, but definitely low self esteem can make a jealousy even more because when you have low self esteem, you're not even in an objective place to make an assessment, you're already feeling low, you're already feeling bad about yourself. And so almost by default, what everybody else has already looks better. So it's almost kind of like you're starting off with a head start in terms of jealousy.
Is there anything else? Honestly, like, I feel like I'm a student at school, just like in the trauma episode in in season one, where this is a whole new world. So I appreciate it and connecting jealousy to, you know, a tough childhood. This is all all new stuff to me. So I appreciate you guys taking the time to explain it. Is there anything else that you feel, I guess, speeds up or that that that strengthens that feeling of jealousy inside of me? Is there anything else inside of me that I need to address? I mean, we're going to talk about inshallah in part two, some of the practical steps, but are there any other things inside of me other than the low self esteem that you feel drive jealousy, I guess? Forward. You know, I would say that one of the most the most profound components in self esteem and in jealousy and in almost any struggle that we might have is our mindset, right? Like, the way we think about situations, the way that we perceive the things that that tend to happen to us, the way the words that we use when we describe ourselves, the self talk that is constantly going through our heads. All of that contributes to mindset. Right. And research has shown that only 10% of our level of contentment in life is related to our circumstances. The other 90% is a mix of genetics and a mix of mindset and other components. Right. But especially mindset, because that's something we have control over. And so, you know, low self esteem. A lot of that is is a real among the other factors. Right. Mindset is is a really big component in it. And one of the reasons that I think it's important to emphasize it is because it really is something that we have power to change.
It takes work, but we absolutely have power to change that. Right. Our brains are constantly changing. And the more we focus on anything, the more that becomes a part of our reality. So the more that we choose to focus on how good somebody else's life looks, the more that becomes a part of our reality and the lens through which we start to look at our lives. But the more that we start to, for example, exercise gratitude, or the more that we start to affirm and focus on our strengths and the strengths of the people in our lives and the bounties that LS Pantheta has given us, the more that becomes a part of our reality. So changing our mindset and the way that we do things is is, I think, a really big component, whether jealousy is stemming from self esteem or whether self esteem is stemming from jealousy. Either way, mindset is helpful. And I would also like to add, you know, mindset is so important and being able to take actionable steps towards working towards one's jealousy. But you know, what's really interesting, they found that people who are jealous, especially on social media, sometimes they might start to increase their presence on social media because they're trying to seek validation. And when they do out of character things like they're posting silly things that they wouldn't ordinarily post, then people might not like it or they might not say anything. And what ends up happening is they have more feelings of rejection. And it makes their feelings of self esteem go even lower because it's like, here, I'm trying to put out these efforts, you know, to better myself.
And it's not working. In fact, like now I feel worse than before because I didn't get the validation that I needed. So just like Sara was saying that taking the appropriate steps, whether it's, you know, working on your mindset or practicing gratitude, looking to those who have less than you, that the right steps is really important in kind of like what can accelerate the jealousy or, you know, reel it in. I want to talk about ungratefulness in a few moments, being ungrateful, because I think that's connected, surely. But just on the low self esteem question, I understand like having low self esteem makes you compare with others a lot more and you know, you feel worse. But on the other side, if you're feeling very like you've got a lot of potential and you feel ambitious, doesn't that affect your jealousy as well? If I'm ambitious in this life, I know this is a bit of a weak question, but I'm feeling ambitious and I have all these expectations for my life in this dunya. I mean, a lot of these expectations are probably unrealistic and cannot be achieved. A lot of them can. But do you feel like the more ambitious I am, the more I'm going to be disappointed, the more I feel jealous? You know, that's a really good question, Mashallah, because I think all of it goes back to intention, right?
If the intention is to impress people, right, then disappointment is inevitable, right? So is the expectation that the end result is going to be exactly the way I want it and I'm going to get the admiration that I'm seeking, then yeah, the disappointment is going to be inevitable. And it's going to be like what Najwa was talking about, that self-fulfilling prophecy of like, okay, well, again, it failed. And again, I feel worse about myself. And, you know, so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, this negative cycle. But if the intention is for the sake of Allah, then the expectations are realistic, right? Because you're focusing in on putting in effort to better yourself and knowing that that effort is being seen and witnessed by Allah, even if the end result doesn't turn out exactly the way that you anticipated. And you might be disappointed, like that's a normal feeling. If you don't, if you know, you work really hard, for example, on an exam or a business proposal or something like that, and it doesn't end up the way that you had anticipated, that disappointment is normal. But knowing that all of the effort was seen by Allah subhana wa ta'ala really helps as an antidote to jealousy in that circumstance, because your intention is in the right space. I love that. I love that. Honestly, I feel like Islam liberates us, you know, and helps us with this particular thing. Because like, if you were to compare, I guess in secular society, it's the result. Like I need to have purchased the car or I have to have got the job. And that's kind of the sign of success. Whereas I know as a Muslim, my intention is right, and I'm trying, then I have just by trying, I have achieved and I've ticked the box. So I feel like, as I said, Islam is liberating in that.
You guys mentioned disqualifying positives as a common connection to jealousy. Do you mind explaining that? For me, it just sounds like being ungrateful. The more ungrateful you are, the more jealous you are. Have I understood that correctly? So, in the trauma series where we talk about cognitive distortion, so cognitive distortion is an unhealthy way of thinking. And one of the unhealthy ways of thinking, and this happens to everybody, it just happens to varying degrees, is something called disqualifying the positives. And so what that means is, every day when you're going out in the world, you are experiencing feelings, you're experiencing thoughts, and those turn into schemas of how we view the world around us. And so the outlook that we have, it can be positive, it can be negative, but sometimes we can also have certain filters. And disqualifying the positives, that can be in one of two ways. It's overlooking the positives in both. It can be very specific. So like, you know, my friend and I, we both got A's on the test, but I had to study way harder because I'm not as smart than she is. So like, it's a very specific comparison, or it can be a very broad one, like, you know, everybody likes him more than they like me. So it is disqualifying the positives and focusing in on kind of the negative.
So, you know, you have one example where you might maybe not get a good grade on an exam, or someone says something not nice to you, and you hone in on the negative. And then you don't pay attention to that, you know, you avoided a car accident in the morning. Or that, you know, maybe you're not the most popular person at school, but you have a wonderful family that is so incredibly supportive. Or that, you know, maybe your spouse is not the wealthiest, but he's the most kind and he's most generous in other ways. So it becomes kind of like a filter where you focus in on the negatives and you disqualify, you don't pay attention to all of the positive blessings that you have, or you minimize them. Is that a switch that just happens? Or is there something that leads to kind of getting into that mindset? It can definitely happen over time. And sometimes the more difficult feelings that we experience, the easier it is to fall into that. Because when you're not feeling good about yourself, or you have low self-esteem, or you're sad, or you're anxious, it can snowball. And so, especially if you're looking for evidence, then whatever you look for, you will find it. If you want to look for the good in your life, you're going to find it. If you look for the negative, you will find that as well. So it starts out slowly, and then it can really build up big time over time. Yeah, I like the example of, like when we think about the brain, there are certain pathways in our minds that are easy to walk down because we do it so frequently. So if we often look at what we're lacking in our lives, then that pathway, it's almost like walking through a forest and it's a very clear trail, right? So it's very easy to walk down that path. But if you're trying to train your brain to do something different, to start looking at the positives, that's more difficult and it takes more practice.
So it's like you're walking through a forest, but you choose a path that's less traveled, and there are brambles and there are branches in the way, and you have to kind of cut through that. So the first time it's very hard, the second time it's still hard, the third time it's still hard, but little by little, as you clear that path, it becomes easier and easier to walk down that path. Because that's the way Allah has created us, that our brains can change. And he told us that when you are grateful, I will increase you. And I really believe that this is one of the ways that Allah increases us in goodness when we're grateful, is that path toward gratitude becomes easier to walk down. Sister Sarah and Sister Najwa, Jazakallah Khair. I came into this conversation thinking jealousy is just that discomfort that I have in my life when I see someone else succeed or buy a new car or whatnot. But it is a lot deeper, there's a lot more going on. And it leads to a lot worse than just that feeling of discomfort. It could lead to doubts in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. It could lead to much more negative actions, it could lead to a cycle of low self-esteem. I appreciate you guys unpacking that. And inshallah, we don't normally do this in double take, but we're going to take another episode to explain just how to get out of the cycle of jealousy and how to address it and how to identify it. I appreciate your time and inshallah we'll see you in part two. Jazakallah Khair.