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Are Religiosity and Mental Health Connected? | DoubleTake S3 E13
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The importance of mental health is discussed everywhere today, from workplaces and schools to television shows and social media. In most cases, however, it has a distinctly secular approach. There is rarely any mention of the role that faith and spirituality can play in mental well-being.
A recent study by Yaqeen makes the case that religiosity is not only relevant to mental health, but central to it. What are the biggest factors affecting the mental health of Muslims? How can religiosity lead to positive psychological outcomes? Can religiosity even be measured?
In this season finale, host Mohamad Zaoud talks to Dr. Osman Umarji and Dr. Farah Islam, co-authors of “Faith in Mind: Islam’s Role in Mental Health.” Read the study here: https://yqn.io/mqg
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This transcript was auto-generated using AI and may contain misspellings. Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh. The importance of mental health is discussed everywhere today, from workplaces and schools to television shows and social media. In most cases, however, it has a distinctly secular approach. There is rarely any mention of the role that faith and spirituality can play in mental well-being. A recent study by Yaqeen Institute makes the case that religiosity is not only relevant to mental health, but central to it. What are the biggest factors affecting the mental health of Muslims? How can religiosity lead to positive psychological outcomes? And can religiosity even be measured? Welcome to a new episode of Double Take, a podcast by Yaqeen Institute about the questions and ideas around Islam and Muslims that give us pause. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. If you like what you hear or want to share some feedback, you can do so directly using the link in the show notes. I'm Mohammed Zaud, and today we're exploring the actual relationship between religiosity and psychological well-being. I'm joined by Dr. Uthman Umarji and Dr. Farah Islam, co-authors of a new article and study by Yaqeen Institute titled, Faith in Mind, Islam's Role in Mental Health. Dr. Uthman is the Director of Survey Research and Evaluation at Yaqeen. He studied Islam in Al-Azhar University in Cairo, and he has a PhD in Educational Psychology from UC Irvine, where he is also an adjunct professor in the School of Education. Dr. Farah is the Director of Psychospirituality Studies at Yaqeen Institute. She's a mental health advocate, educator, and researcher.
She has a PhD in Epidemiology from York University, and she is currently a student in the Scholar of Islamic Sciences Alamia Program at Mathaba Institute. Enjoy the episode. Dr. Uthman, Dr. Farah, Salam alaikum, and welcome back. Wa alaikum salam, brother Mohammed. So good to see you. Wa alaikum salam. I don't know about you guys, but for me growing up, anytime I was feeling down or out, I was told by my parents, go and pray, go and read Quran. And my parents, much like the rest of the Muslim community, would equate poor mental health with poor religiosity and vice versa. I'd say in our community, there are probably two camps. On one side, there are people who think that if we just do more direct worship, like read Quran, pray fast, we won't experience mental illness like depression or anxiety. And on the other hand, there are people who treat mental health like physical health. Just like you go to the doctor for a broken bone, you're supposed to go to a, I guess, a professional, a mental health professional, secular mental health professional for a broken brain, so to speak, and that religion is not related. So you both conducted a very, very comprehensive study about the relationship between religiosity and mental health. And I'm very, very interested to find out what were your conclusions? The big conclusion from the study, Alhamdulillah, was that mental health was related to one's religiosity or religiosity was related to one's mental health. But there's a lot to unpack because the answer is neither of the two things that you have presented. Right? Neither does just opening the Quran to read it and praying going to solve all mental health problems, nor is simply going to a secular mental health practitioner. So we need to be very careful when we talk about this relationship.
It is quite nuanced and detailed and Insha'Allah we'll unpack that over the next few minutes, Insha'Allah. So what would you say are the key takeouts from the study? Tell me more about the study, actually, because a lot of people have a lot to say about Islam and mental health. So tell me why you went on and focused on this topic, what you did, how the study kind of was put together. And then let's go through the two or three major findings. Sure, Bismillah. So the imperative and the purpose behind this entire study, first and foremost, was this big question actually of what is religiosity. So it was first and foremost study about what is religiosity. And then secondly, we investigated how does religiosity relate to mental health? And so just to take a step back, you know, people all the time talk about these things like, oh, what is the role of religion in life? What's the role of religion in mental health? What's the role of religion in X, Y, Z? You fill in the blank. And the first question that one has to answer is what in the world do you mean by religiosity? Do you mean that I have a nice beard on my face? So that makes me religious. Right. Or I have a headscarf. Right. Or my, you know, whatever it might be, whatever we think. You know, every culture has their indicators. We always joke about this. For some folks, it's like, you know, is the meat halal? Right. Is the beard long or the pants short? Got those three. MashaAllah. Right. Right. And for other people, no, no, no. Islam is only in my heart. Right. And like, mashallah, your heart is big. You can do sujood in your heart. So and so forth. So so it's like, no, it's like there is a lot to religiosity. And people often do such a disservice when they say things like, well, if you go to the masjid on a Friday, well, I guess you're religious. Or if you go to church on a Sunday. So that's kind of where this came from. So to understand that question, we went to a global audience. Right. We went to Muslims from all over the world. I don't remember the number of countries, but it's more than 50 countries from Asia, Africa, North America, even some in South America. Unfortunately, as one of our European fellows reminds us, we just don't get anyone from Antarctica yet.
So inshallah, we'll get there. Right. But and collectively, we really were able to come up with what we believe is a much more broad definition of religiosity. And then we use that to understand a number of different mental health related outcomes. And that's because maybe I should jump in, like just like we don't really know exactly what religiosity means. And people say it sometimes people use the word mental health and they mean all kinds of different things. So before we can tell you exactly what we found, we should define such a fundamental term. Most of the times there's so much confusion when it comes to defining mental health. Oftentimes I've heard people say things like, oh, that person struggles with mental health. Well, wait a minute. Mental health is a positive term, right? It's like physical health. You wouldn't say someone struggling with physical health. So there's so much confusion. And generally speaking, most people, when they think of the word mental health or anything with mental, really, they think of something negative. So they think of psychopathology is generally what we would say, like depression or anxiety or mental illness. And they forget that mental health actually encompasses positive measures of mental health as well, like well-being and life satisfaction and thriving and flourishing and so much more. And so I think the UN has a really good definition of mental health. They talk about how, you know, it's like actualizing yourself, finding your most optimal self, contributing to your society, all these things. And so not only did we at Yaqeen want to have a holistic definition of religiosity, because of course our deen is a way of life, but we also wanted to have a really holistic or at least multifaceted understanding of mental health. So we had five different mental health outcome measures in this study. So it's not just the mental illnesses that we tend to kind of think about when we say mental health. It's more about the positive thriving outcomes. It's both. Exactly. It's a combination of both. It's so much more than just focusing on depression or anxiety, which we often do.
But then there's these positive measures, too. OK, so that's clear. In terms of religiosity, just so that we can go to the outcomes of the study, how did we define religiosity? Is it just reading Quran and fasting and praying and the rituals of Islam? Yeah, Jazakumullahu khair. So we took a very Quranic and hadith oriented approach, thinking about all the things that Allah and his messenger have said that underlie these ideas of like bitter righteousness or Iman or Islam or Ihsan. And there's there's obviously so many and we can't cover everything. But we kind of tried to focus on the big landmark aspects of one's religious practice. So we picked there were six total dimensions, but I'll make three to make our life easy for today. One of them had to do with kind of our beliefs and our attitudes. It's like one just big bucket. Like how do you see the world from a religious lens? How do you have trust in Allah when things happen the way that you don't expect them to happen? So that was one big bucket, just kind of what's happening here in terms of your orientation towards life. Number two had to be the actual practice. So both the quality and the quantity. So do you read the Quran? Do you pray? What is the quality of that experience? Do you feel a connection to Allah? Do you feel close to Allah? Do you feel at peace when you do these things? The third thing that people don't speak a lot about is the fact that religiosity in our faith, especially, is related to living in a vibrant community, which means you are a part of that community, right? You're part of the Ummah of Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. You're connected to other Muslims who live around you or in a larger vicinity. And you actually contribute to the world in a positive way. So those three dimensions of your beliefs and attitude in your mind, your actual spiritual practices, and then your engagement with the community, both in being involved and contributing, for us, that gave us a broad lens on what is holistic religiosity. Okay, so we're going to go into the outcomes of your study. It was a very comprehensive study.
And just to summarize so far, we're defining religiosity as three things. Someone's beliefs, they need to actually believe in Islam and in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala, and they need to have a positive relationship with those beliefs. It's the rituals and practices. So they need to be fasting and praying. And then they're engaged in their community and doing kind of good within their community, Islamically. That's kind of the religiosity piece. Mental health, we're saying mental health is not just mental illnesses. It's more of the positive stuff, such as living your best self. With that said, what were the outcomes of your study? If I'm religious, am I happier? Do I have a better mental health? Great. All right. So now that we are very clear on definitions, we'll take it one by one. So we're going to break this into two. The question will be, how does religiosity influence mental illness? And then we'll tackle how does religiosity influence flourishing or thriving or the positive side of mental health? And so the so the first finding is that religiosity has a small relationship with depression and anxiety and some of the negative aspects. And I say small because there are much more dominant factors that exist out there, both dominant psychological factors, demographic factors that underlie this. I mean, a whole lot we know about psychopathology is there's genetic components, right? There's environmental components, components. So, yes, religiosity had an effect. Right. And those were more religious, had fewer symptoms of depression and anxiety, but it wasn't by any means the largest predictor. Now, so that now we go to the other side and we say, how did religiosity influence thriving? Well, actually, it was the biggest component that we could find more than your wealth, your education, whether you're married, how old you are, your gender. Being religious in this holistic sense was heavily related to your life satisfaction, having a strong purpose in life and your subjective well-being.
How do you feel right now about your state? That's very interesting. Why are we saying that or why do you think there is less of a correlation between mental illnesses and religiosity and then more of a correlation between religiosity and thriving and the positive side of mental health? Just as Dr. Rathman was talking about, when we're talking about mental illness and psychopathology, there is a large genetic component. There's family history, there's trauma. There's so many other variables that are involved that can contribute to a person dealing with depression or anxiety in their life. But when it comes to those thriving, flourishing, or those well-being types of measures of positive mental health, our religiosity is this amazing source of strength, amazing source of coping for us as Muslims. And really, it gives us that sort of meaning in life. There's this great book. I don't know if you've read it, Brother Mohamed, but it's called Flow. It's about the optimal science of happiness or something. Yes. So, the scientist, he went around to all these different people, and when he spoke to Muslims, he actually found them to be some of the happiest people he met. And that's because they found meaning in their suffering, which I found, Spanola, so fascinating. And so, because as Muslims, we're able to go through... Life is hard. It's Spanola. There are hardships in life, and we know we're going to be tested through life. And they're able to meet, as believers, we're able to meet those tests with an understanding that there's a reason for it. There's a capital R reason for why I'm going through what I'm going through. My tears have a reason for why they're here. There is that Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala has my back, that Allah wants Jannah for me, that there's this bigger reason for it, helps us have greater positive mental health, just through this understanding and worldview.
Yeah, if I just add empirically, Brother Mohamed, to what we did find, because you would say, well, if religiosity is not the biggest predictor of psychopathology, then what is? And so what we found was that this is really interesting kind of psychological idea, which is how comfortable somebody is with uncertainty, or how uncomfortable someone is with uncertainty. So we call this uncertainty intolerance. And so we found that people who endorse these beliefs, I don't like it when I don't have certainty in decision making. Those people have the highest levels of psychopathology, which makes sense, because if anxiety is all about being fearful, or it's having that emotional response to something you don't know about, right? That you don't know what's going to happen, right? And of course, anxiety and depression are correlated. So if you said, well, what predicts psychopathology in Muslims and non-Muslims, uncertainty intolerance is probably the largest predictor that we know about. And so just religious practice can't eliminate, right, just that uncertainty that you're going through and that discomfort you have. Dr. Othman, you're going to have to break it down for me. I'm a very, very simple person. I did read flow. But uncertainty intolerance, just explain what that is and explain how this is connected to Islam, please. Yeah, great. So the term uncertainty intolerance, right, it's the definition of it. It's a bias that we have in our mind that affects the way that we feel and we think and we approach situations that we don't fully know what's going to happen. Right. So give me an example. Like if you're going to go get up right now and you're going to go, let's say, for a run somewhere, right? Now, what would you probably do? You might pull out your phone to check the weather. So you put on the exact clothing you need for the weather that you're under. Right now, if I said, hey, you're going to go for a run, but you're not going to know what the weather is like. You might be like, oh, my God, I hate that. I really like to be in control of the situation. I want to exactly the trail. If I said I'm going to drop you in the forest, go for a run. But I can't handle that level of uncertainty right in what I'm doing.
So so that especially keep in mind one thing. So this study was run during this pandemic that we've been living in. Right. And this was a time of global uncertainty. Right. People didn't know when is this going to end? Is there a lockdown today? Is it not a lockdown today? When my kids didn't go to school. So, of course, it's heightened in that people are really having to cope with uncertainty. So the inability or the the dislike of being in uncertain situations, right, creates us creates a sense of anxiety and worry in us. And that worry and that anxiety leads us to sometimes catastrophizing the future. In other words, saying, you know what, since I don't really know what's going to happen, I probably think the worst is going to happen. And of course, if you think the worst is going to happen, right, that's going to negatively affect how you feel about life. But Dr. Uthman, do you feel like that's specific to Muslims? That just sounds like a general kind of human thing. Yes. Is that correct? Yeah. So it's not specific to Muslims. So when we're doing this study, like we're trying to isolate religiosity, but we're looking at all kinds of other factors that are shared between Muslims and non-Muslims. So, for instance, age. So then how does religiosity impact uncertainty, intolerance? Yeah, that is a really, really good question. So in this study, we were unable to answer that question, but we have a number of beliefs and thoughts about this. So the key thing is this ties into the idea of tawakkul in Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. Right. Like Allah has made this world uncertain for us. We know that. Right. Like he told us in the Quran in multiple places, right, that that you only Allah knows when the rain is going to fall. He knows what's in the wombs of the mother. Right. Whether it's a boy or a girl, they're going to be happy or sad. He knows how much money we're going to make. So Allah made the world uncertain. So what are we supposed to do with that uncertainty? Right. For a believer, there's an element of trusting in Allah. Right. And saying, you know what, Allah, it will always be there for me. Even if I don't know what tomorrow is going to look like, I know I can count on Allah to make tomorrow a livable, you know, actually not just livable, but to make it a place where I can succeed and I can thrive.
And that's why we go back to this idea of your beliefs and your attitudes, because one can read the Quran. Right. One can pray. Right. One can donate. Right. And do some of these kind of direct practices. But if your worldview is not oriented to saying, you know what, I don't know what tomorrow is going to bring, but I'm OK with that. Right. I'm OK with that because I know that Allah is in charge. Right. Without that kind of attitude towards one's life. Right. They're going to be paralyzed with uncertainty. So religiosity, if done properly, can reduce our uncertainty and tolerance. I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about religious doubt. We covered this several episodes ago on Double Take and religious doubt does exist in our community. We did mention in this episode that being religious has a positive impact on your life. That's great to hear. But what if you have religious doubt? Is there a correlation? Do I do I live a more difficult life or do I have more chances of having some sort of difficult mental health or bad mental health if I have religious doubt? Yeah, that's a great question, Muhammad. So, yes, in our study, we did find that religious doubt and what we mean by religious doubt is the discomfort that people feel when they have unanswered questions about their faith, that experiencing that more frequently is related to having more depressive and anxiety symptoms. Now, one thing that our study could not determine, which was which is causing which. So is it that poor mental health causes people to have more doubts or is it that having more doubts causes poor mental health? Now, we speculate that they're related to one another, right, that there can be a feedback cycle, right, that if you are suffering from from mental illness, right, that's that's painful. Right. And you might start to have questions about your faith that, well, is my faith true? Is it answering, you know, if my faith was correct and maybe I shouldn't be having these things.
So that can create that cycle. And you can have the inverse where simply that, well, if you feel religious doubt, well, you might feel like a bad Muslim and you might start to have more kind of just like now fear about who you are, where you're going to go in the afterlife. And that can cause mental pain as well. And this is what you find with the companions of the Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam. When they came to the Prophet during their experiences of religious doubt and they came into the Rasulullah Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam and they said, Ya Rasulullah, we experienced these, these, these, we have these thoughts that creep into our minds about Allah and we hate having these thoughts. And the Prophet kind of looked at them and he said that, do you really have those thoughts? And they said, yes. And he said, that is a sign of clear faith. And so it's a very interesting answer because the Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam is doing a couple of things. Number one, he is validating the fact that doubts may exist even in the afterlife. Good righteous religious people. So it's not mutually exclusive to have doubts and to be religious. Second of all, those doubts are painful because no one wants to feel that, that, you know, that, that, that all the baggage that comes with feeling like you don't have certainty when it comes to the most important part of your life. So the Prophet is validating the experience of doubt and the feelings of doubt and then saying, you have good faith if those doubts are causing you pain, right? Because that's a sign that you have faith that you don't want to have them in the first place. So the companions experienced it. And then even Ibrahim not to use the term doubt with him, but this questioning of faith that when he went to Allah, he said, Oh, Allah, tell me how you, how do you bring life back to the dead? And Allah asked Ibrahim, do you not believe? Ibrahim said, I do believe, but it will increase me in my, you know, in my certainty. And so Ibn Abbas, the great companion, he said this is the most hopeful ayah in the Quran to him because Ibrahim was able to ask a question like this and Allah accepted, you know, his, his answer essentially. Allah accepted the fact that he said, I believe, but I'm looking for more. Right? So, I mean, it's all putting all this together.
Religious doubts can cause some mental pain and anguish, but it doesn't mean that one is not practicing or one is not religious. And then is it correct for me to say that being religious gives you that path to alleviate those religious doubts? Like there's a path back to Allah and then the positive mental health outcomes because of the things that you just mentioned that it's acknowledged that, you know, a religious Muslim can have those religious doubts. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think one of the key things that we always talk about in any field of work is the match between the expectations you have in the reality. So if one is kind of told and taught that there will be points in your life where you have these deep questions, that's okay. That is liberating to know that, you know, I expect this might happen to me. So I'm ready when they happen and I'm not going to tear myself up when they happen. Just like if you told somebody, you know what, no matter how hard you study in school and no matter what you do, you know, there's going to be setbacks. Preparing someone for knowing that there will be challenges is a very liberating force. So that's we want to give our community to say doubts may happen and don't beat yourself up when they happen. Actually, it's a sign you have faith if you're concerned about having religious doubts. So I have a question. I'm assuming after interviewing Muslims in 50 different countries that you uncovered some interesting things about the Muslim mental health industry. Are there anything or is there anything that you'd like to say to Muslim mental health practitioners and to Sheikhs actually who are expected to have, you know, a psych degree these days? Did you uncover anything interesting and do you have any advice for the industry? So one of our big recommendations out of the research for sure is if we're putting forth this idea that Muslim mental health is this construct
and there's this inextricable link between religiosity and mental health for us as Muslims, that it makes sense for mental health care for Muslim populations to be at this nexus of religiosity as in caring for our spiritual well-being at the same time as caring for our mental health. And so, you know, we definitely do put forth that recommendation that mental health therapists or just the whole field of Islamic psychotherapy work hard to bridge those two parts of ourselves. So they're putting forth care and mental health care options and spiritual care options that are marrying the two because they're clearly so inter, you know, what can we say, so intimately intertwined for us as Muslims and so important to our well-being. So as if Imams, you know, one of the great recommendations is to get some mental health training to understand counseling theory and to understand that other side of human emotions and learning to deal with people on that level. And at the same time, for those working in the mental health space, it's not just enough to be a Muslim who happens to also be a therapist, right? Offering someone that Islamic psychotherapy or that type of really that bridging between that religious care and that spiritual, sorry, the spiritual and the religious care as well as a mental health care requires intensive training as well. So just to be mindful of putting that recommendation forward as well. Would you, would you say if I go to a Muslim therapist and that's enough, just someone who is, who is understanding of my context, is that enough? Do you think for me to get the best mental health outcomes or do they need to study something specific or do they need to be aware of certain things based on your study?
Yes, we would say no, it requires actually intensive training, just like an Imam having to go for an MSW or a counseling, a master's in counseling. It's a similar thing where a therapist would need to go through, you know, years of understanding and of Islam, of Islamic history, of mental health care in the Muslim populations, of trying to understand, you know, all the relevant verses from the Quran and Hadith, etc. That really relate to emotional health and well-being and being able to do that within a, in a way that's thoughtful. It actually marries the two. Let's be very clear. There's a difference between Muslim mental health and Islamic mental health. So just because someone is a Muslim mental health practitioner doesn't mean they practice anything Islamic whatsoever. And I use the analogy with schools all the time, right? You know, my work is in education for the most part. We have a lot of, there is a difference between being in a Muslim school and an Islamic school. Right? And, and so just the sheer nature of going to a Muslim is not going to give you an Islamic experience. And so just like Dr. Farah has mentioned, it is so integral that a Muslim mental health therapist learn not everything about Islam, but learn how Islam plays into what their role is, which is spiritual care. So what does Islam say about those big, you know, there's, there's counseling theories that are out there. Are those counseling theories that are being used in line with our faith? Are the practices being recommended in line with our faith? How do we bring the Islamic worldview into our counseling? So that requires, I would always say it's, it's, it's like a professional development, right? It's this ongoing journey of learning about Islamic tazkiyah, right? About Islamic spirituality, right? About Islamic interventions that have been done with their scientific research on this work. Yeah. Oh, we are. Yeah, exactly. So Alhamdulillah, just like anything else, there's quality, variability and everything.
So we have phenomenal, you know, Islamically grounded, grounded therapists, and we have some who are just Muslim by, you know, they're Muslim, but they don't know anything about incorporating Islam. So we have wonderful examples of scholars in this country who have gone on to then study mental health and be very, very competent in practicing it. We've had therapists who've gone on to study Islam in quite a bit of detail, and they're able to do this. So we have many, many examples, but for the individual who's looking for care, it's really important that you actually identify that is this just a Muslim or someone who actually knows how to incorporate Islam. And I think that will help you determine if you're going to get Islamically grounded care, or you're just going to get maybe culturally, you know, acceptable care, right? Because it doesn't even if... Where does a Muslim, yeah, where does a Muslim psych go? Like what would they do? They finish their degree, they're Muslim, sure. They've studied a bit of, you know, Islamic stuff just by being in the community. But what do they have to do in order to seriously integrate some of the concepts you're mentioning into their practice? Yeah, great question. So there are a number of different programs that are out there. Some are international, right? There are certain programs that teach courses on Islamic psychotherapy. I don't have all the names of the courses handy, but if a therapist is interested in that field, there are many avenues to go about formally to learn that. Then beyond the formal instruction, this is just about being in learning settings about Islam, where you can actually pull information and you learn about taizkiyah, and you now see the connection. You say, oh, okay, I see how in cognitive behavioral therapy, right, we have these tools. And I see in Islamic spirituality, we kind of have these other ideas. How do I bring these two together? So there is an element of creativity on the therapist's part to bring these two worlds together. And honestly, this is a very exciting time because we're in the infancy of developing these things. So someone who's passionate about it, it's not like, oh, everything's been done. It's got to go through the motions. It's like you can actually help bring this whole field to life. So, you know, we have here locally where I live in Southern California, right? One of our senior fellows, right? Dr. Hassan, right?
You know, is an incredibly competent, you know, scholar of Islam from the spirituality side and also did a master's in therapy. And now he runs a clinic, right, that serves Southern California. So there's examples of individuals who are out there who have taken this upon themselves. Now he's working to train those other therapists who are there. And so inshallah, over the coming decades, I believe this will be kind of, we won't be having this conversation inshallah in 20 years. It'll be like, okay, like everyone knows, like it's kind of like 30 years ago, if you said, where can I hear khutbah in English, right, in the West? Like now we don't have that problem, right? Inshaallah, we'll have the same issue when it comes to Islamically grounded therapy. I really hope that's the case. Because I honestly like, one of the reasons I don't go see a shrink when I feel like I should is like, what would they know about my context? And if I go to a Muslim one, like really, am I going to get anything professional? But I do feel like things are changing. I am seeing Muslim psych centers and clinics opening up. I see more sophisticated Muslims getting involved in the space. And so I'm glad and I'm excited to see what happens in the coming decade or so. We're all very excited and we are doing that. That's why this research is being done. I mean, we're hoping that we're just scratching the surface of this and we will continue to unpack this. And hopefully our findings help. And the goal is that the clinicians take these findings and say, okay, what can we do with this, right? So it's one baby step at a time. Yeah, like a problem identified is a problem solved. I think you both have done a great job at identifying certainly the correlation and the problem. One final question before we move into the rapid fire that's supposed to improve your mental health, mind you. The question in your article about the practical pieces of advice. So I want to use my religion to improve my mental health. What do I do?
Exactly. So hopefully through all this discussion, we've convinced you, inshallah, that my mental health is inextricably linked to my... So my religiosity is inextricably linked to my mental health. So what can I do? What can I do to engage my mental health, nurture my mental health, so I can also better connect with my Lord, inshallah. So there are a couple of things. So in general, if we're seeing that religiosity is connected to this idea of positive measures of mental health, then engaging in that holistic religiosity is a fantastic way to boost our mental health, boost our well-being, boost our sense of life satisfaction, boost our sense of life purpose, inshallah. So listening and reciting Quran is a beautiful way to enter into that, inshallah, as the Quran really is at the heart of all our conversations about mental health as it is. The source of contentment and comfort for us as believers. It brings contentment to the heart, alhamdulillah. And another one is deep and mindful prayer as well. You know, when we're engaging in salah, where we're really present and we're mindful and conscious of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala being in front of us and understanding that we are going to meet him and what that means. We cry those tears in our tahajjud, those are those times when we're really connecting with Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala. And that, again, really boosts our mental health because of that deep connection, that deep intimacy. You know, we were created to worship him. You know, that's where we find our sense of purpose. That's where we find our sense of contentment and joy in our life, alhamdulillah. Engaging in helping others is another really big one. This idea of pro-social behavior. It's amazing, alhamdulillah, how much that is what, you know, connects us as a community, connects us to each other, gives us a sense of purpose. Again, that I am even just as just little old me can help someone else.
You know, I can give food to my neighbor, whatever it is, but it helps me connect with this greater community, this greater ummah that I'm a part of and greater humanity as well, subhanallah. And that's such a such a big feeling, alhamdulillah, just being a part of this greater whole. And again, it just kind of also reminds us of the incredible good that we are capable of. And I think we all need that reminder, especially in our low points. So a wonderful way to boost your mental health for sure. Living an active lifestyle. We talked to brother Mohammed being busy at the gym, lifting his weights. I know Dr. Othman playing golf, mashallah. I don't know how much physical activity that involves, but hey, you know, walking around on the green, that's good too. But living an active lifestyle, there are there's just a whole host of research that talks about the incredible connection between physical health and mental health. And we're really doing a disservice to ourselves when we don't engage in that physical lifestyle. And, you know, alhamdulillah, I know Dr. Othman make sure that he works out or tries to inshallah every day. Similarly, as well, you know, not just for the mental health connection. It's just it just helps you feel better. It helps you sleep better. There's so many there's so many ways in which that it just helps. Alhamdulillah. And there are ways to write that you can connect your religious life with your active life, if this makes sense. So when you go for a hike, you know, do your tadaab, do your tafakkur, you know, do your dhikr, you know, whether it's the evening, evening remembrance or the morning remembrance. Go for it. Go for those walks and remember Allah subhana wa ta'ala. What a beautiful way to combine these wonderful practices. So the last one, inshallah, is that of muraqabah and tafakkur. There is this beautiful, a lot of a lot of great research right now talking about how this in deep contemplation that have been tafakkur and muraqabah,
this kind of idea of Islamic mindfulness and this idea of reminding ourselves that Allah subhana wa ta'ala is always watching us, is watchful over us and how then we have to incorporate that watchfulness into ourselves. You know how much that sort of deep mindfulness, contemplation, how that can be transformative in our lives as well. You know, we are we live these busy lives. We're always caught in all this, you know, busyness, all this change, all this sort of, I don't know, constant sort of chaos subhana wa ta'ala. And so if we're able to slow down and have those moments where we really deeply reflect and remind ourselves of our actual purpose in life, it just helps to to helps improve our mental health and well-being so much. Dr. Farah, Jazakallah khair. And I'm really glad you both worked so hard on this on this project because it is a service to the Muslim community across the globe. You mentioned when you dwindle into chaos that religiosity helps, I guess, pull you out of the trenches. When I dwindle into chaos and this is my first rapid fire question, I typically spend 10 minutes making a good cup of coffee. So my first question to you both is when you walk into your favorite coffee shop, what do you order? You guys tell us what's in your cup right now beside you. So this is probably Kenyan beans, single origin. It took the barista this morning about 10 minutes to make with the V60. Mashallah. Full disclosure, I'm not a coffee person. So if I walk into a coffee shop, I'll probably get some latte that has milk in it to get rid of the coffee flavor. I'm a big chai drinker, so I drink chai every morning and every afternoon.
I'm going to be even worse. I don't drink caffeine at all. So I'm so sorry, but I'm no aficionado in this respect. I'm offended. What was the last book you've read? The last book I read was Burnout by Amelia and Emily Nagoski, which was really, really fascinating. I think oftentimes we have this very superficial idea of self-care, and they were talking about how if we want to eliminate burnout or really work harder towards not experiencing so much burnout in our lives, and I feel we all do, subhanallah, right? It requires that really deep work of going back and trying to understand and unpack all our traumas or difficulties that we've actually faced. It requires that deep contemplation to really bubble bats and I don't know, those things. That's not going to help. It's really that deep work, and I really appreciated that. Dr. Uthman, the last book that, can I say the last book you wrote? Because I've been reading your books to my kids. I hope they're enjoying it. I am working on another one, but it's not going so fast, so we'll go back to what I read. What's the topic? No, no, I want to know because it's their favorite book. So what's the next book that you're writing? The next one is the novel on the life of Musa alayhi salam. So we got Suleiman done, we're moving on to Musa. MashaAllah. And the last book you read? The last book I've been reading is called The Secret Wisdom of Nature. It is a book that builds on a previous book I read called The Hidden Life of Trees. And it really walks you through the intricacies of ecosystems in a very like therapeutic sense, to be honest. It kind of walks you through every little thing that happens and how it connects something greater. So it's, for me, it's a book of Iman, right? Literally, it's Kitab al-Iman for me.
MashaAllah. Your favorite Sahabi? I gotta go with Omar bin Khattab. I don't know, I'm living in a world where I feel like manliness is kind of not where it needs to be. And so he just represents this really strong, I think, exemplar for us in how to be firm, strong, a good leader, yet at the same time, you know, have the attributes of being sensitive when you need to be sensitive. But yeah, Omar right now, these things change with time. Maybe you ask me in five years, it'll change. But I'm on the Omar bandwagon right now. Brother, Allah hu anhu. I also, I'm always quoting Omar radiyallahu anhu as well. His incredible and immense daqwah is so inspiring to me as well. Dr. Uthman, your PhD is in educational psychology. I've come across enough terms in this episode to last me a lifetime of dictionary, you know, going through a dictionary. So what is educational psychology, please? Yes, it's a fancy term. Essentially, it's at the intersection of both studying the educational systems and how children, adolescents, they learn and progress through the years of schooling and integrating that more with the psychological front. So kind of more to do with the psychological front. But more to do with the beliefs and the attitudes that influence how kids think about education. So my work was all about student motivation. And I studied what in the world causes students to be motivated towards academics and not to be motivated. And Dr. Farah, you have a PhD in epidemiology. What have you pulled from that that has impacted your current work at Yaqeen? So you know what, I looked at the epidemiology of mental health. So I was already studying mental health then.
So I'm just taking that and putting it towards the study of mental health of Muslims, inshallah, at Yaqeen. So it all works. It all ties in, alhamdulillah. One final question. If we had the ideal Muslim psych center, what would that look like? For treating patients or for training people to be therapists? You tell me what would be a better service to the Muslim community. Okay, so one of my big, hairy, audacious goals, so big BHAG, right? One of my BHAGs is wanting to establish a Muslim mental health hospital. I think we don't have it. We don't have acute care facilities. When Muslims are suffering with psychosis or deep and difficult and acute mental illness, we have nothing. And so they're forced to always go through secular and mainstream mental health services or go into the hospital because of that. And so I really want a revival of what Muslim mental health care was like in the Islamic Golden Age. And just harking back to all of our incredible work through these centuries in this field, because we need it. We need it for our Muslim brothers and sisters who are suffering from really, really difficult illnesses. Insha'Allah, insha'Allah, praying that I can work on that. Amin, insha'Allah, it happens in the next decade. Insha'Allah, amin. Jazakallah khair. Dr. Farah and Dr. Uthman, always a pleasure. Thank you very much for joining us again on Double Take. And congratulations on your study. Insha'Allah, it builds the foundation for amazing things in the Muslim mental health space. Barakallah fikum. Barakallah fikum, Brother Mohamed. Jazakumallah khairan.
It's a pleasure to be with you always, Salamu alaikum.
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