Sincerely, Yours
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Sincerely, Omar Husain
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Transcript
This transcript was auto-generated using AI and may contain misspellings. So this is your host Ibrahim Hindi with my co-host Sheikh Abdullah Aduru. Really happy to be live with all of you weekly as we do here on Sincerely Yours. And as you know this is a show where we get to bring on a lot of different speakers and teachers and students of knowledge and scholars to join us where we can talk to them, learn more from them, ask them about their lives. And it's a great opportunity for you to access them too. This is a great opportunity for you to send in your questions and your comments throughout the session. And we have a portion of time towards the end where we take some questions from you, the audience, and we present it to our guests and we talk about it inshallah. So this is a great opportunity for connection between you and the different guests that we get. So Sheikh Abdullah, you know, going through these sessions, you know, what's something that you've learned over this time? Throwing you a curveball right to start. Going through these sessions, masha'Allah, you learn some unexpected things about the people that you just worked with, you know, masha'Allah, in the professional realm, but subhanAllah, some unexpected aspects about their life which makes it much more interesting. Right, so I think that's what's beautiful about it. You always, you see the human side of people and I think you learn to appreciate people for who they are. Because, you know, sometimes just asking the question about them, but you learn new things and it makes you ask yourself questions about yourself as well. So, from Dina. Absolutely, subhanAllah. And sometimes, you know, we think we know some of these speakers and guests that we bring on because we've interacted with them. And we get to know them a lot better just through asking them questions on the show live with everybody with us. And as always, you know, we want to say salam to everyone. We know we have a lot of people who are watching, tuning in from across the world. So feel free inshallah to give us salam. I see sister Maryam from Ottawa giving us salam. So everybody inshallah around the world, you know, throw in your, give us your salam inshallah from where you're at.
So we can respond salam to you as well. And inshallah give us your questions, put them in the chat. And inshallah we'll see them and hopefully we'll be able to take them and bring them forward to our guests inshallah. We have a guest today that's no stranger to myself or Sheikh Abdullah. Dr. Omar Hussain inshallah will be joining us. He graduated from Al-Azhar University with a degree in Islamic studies and Arabic. He has a PhD in counselor education and is an assistant professor at Seattle University in the clinical mental health department. Salam alaikum Dr. Omar, how are you? Wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh. Pleasure to be here alhamdulillah. It's great having you with us. So one thing people don't know, Dr. Omar likes to write up lists of jokes and send them around and sometimes to those of us at Yaqeen. So I'm hoping I don't end up on a list after this inshallah. That's just my first hope. I think that's a very very low probability of that happening. As a matter of fact, you actually just gave me the idea. So I definitely look forward to it. For those who are not familiar with the internal workings at Yaqeen, I think at this point that's the only reason I'm at Yaqeen. To be quite honest. Just to send out top five lists about nothing important or really relevant to the mission of Yaqeen. But just to keep it light inshallah. So we'll look forward to it. It has some connection. We're certain, we have Yaqeen in you that you will furnish us with those five inshallah. I'm going with that. So Dr. Omar, you know, so much of your work has to do, I know you do a lot of counseling on the side along with your research and I'm sure giving lectures on mental health.
And I think a good place to start here is, you know, your job as a counselor or the work that you do as a counselor. Seeing so many different Muslims who are reaching out to you and talking to you, maybe since you like doing lists, what would be the top three list of problems that you see, like trends that you see that's happening amongst Muslim youth across North America? So I will, I'm not going to give a top three, but perhaps to give a better understanding, I will say this. And I think this will clarify things. Nothing that affects the greater population that we live in, speaking in a context for Muslims living in the West. I know we have viewers from all over the world, but even that would be included to some extent. The Muslim community is not immune from anything that's happening in greater society. So whether that is alcohol, drugs, sexual morality, you know, parents, problem with parents and children and, you know, marriage, marital problems, domestic violence, there's nothing that we are immune from. So I think rather than saying, you know, having a top list, I would say that really anything, any of the common issues that are happening in greater society almost certainly are affecting the Muslim community. So no point in keeping our heads buried in the sand. That is the reality. Very, very interesting question. No, go ahead. You had a question. No, I mean, that's important. And it's very interesting because, you know, when you move to another land or another country and, you know, myself being first generation American, sometimes the parents don't realize. And I'm almost sure, Shikim, and you dealt with this, you know, being a man of a masjid and, you know, dealing with the youth a lot.
Sometimes the parents are oblivious to the normalities of that culture, of that place that they live in. Right. Whether it's video games or, you know, Jay-Z, you know, whatever it may be, the parents are oblivious to that. And then when they see it, they don't know how to respond. Right. So just hearing that, I think, is important for parents to know that. Look, dare I use the words product of society, that would that be accurate or is that, you know, will somewhat be affected by the societal norms, good, bad and ugly? I mean, we're keeping it 100 here on Sincerely, yes. Yeah, I would say that's that's that's exactly that's really what it is. I was I make this sort of half joke, like and I'm not trying to be controversial, but, you know, it's like like Islamic schools are like public schools with Muslim kids. Of course, I'm totally being unfair and every school is different and there's many pros, no question about it. But just, you know, to kind of just just to give a little idea, touching on your point. Yes. And I think also really important point you mentioned, there's also the positives. Right. It's easy to just focus on the negatives. But I can tell you, for example, things such as just talking about race, I think, is drastically different than than perhaps an environment that many of us grew up in, which is a very positive thing. And maybe ideas about equality in terms of, you know, socioeconomic status or things like that, what what a masjid should look like, you know, who we're catering to underserved populations in the masjid. I think these are healthy and robust conversations that we're having. And this is definitely a positive thing that we that we pick up from the environment that we grow up in.
So it works both ways. No question about it. I mean, it's upon like even addressing mental health. Right. And that's one of the pluses, definitely in a society that making it an issue that we need to be concerned about our mental health. And then it's upon the likes of yourself, you know, I mean, dedicating your career and your time to that for for human beings in general, in the Muslim community and specific that, you know, taking that being intentional about, you know. Paying attention to our mental health, I think, subhanAllah, you know, and then now taking it back to, you know, you see what the scholars of the past, masha'Allah, they talked about it directly or indirectly within their works. So Jazakallah khairan. I was interested in saying that you said, you know, even though we're talking about North America to a great extent, it's kind of affecting the world. And I was thinking even this is a strange story when I was maybe in grade four or five and my parents went for Hajj and they left me in Egypt with my family, my extended family. And I remember she took me to the Nadi, which is like the club, public club where people come together and they have like a park and things like that. And all of a sudden they started singing and dancing to the Macarena. I don't know if you remember that song that went viral in America. But the thing was like that. So that whole Macarena thing was like huge in America, in North America for a while. And then it was like done. Nobody wanted anything to do with it for like a few years. And so this was a few years later. All of a sudden they're singing and dancing to it in Egypt. After like America's like that's so lame at this point. So things would take time to get to like Egypt. They would take time to get to Saudi Arabia. Things that were happening in America, North America when we were younger. Now with the Internet, anything that happens in America, tomorrow it's in Saudi Arabia. They're hearing about it tomorrow.
It's in all around the world. So, yeah, these problems of depression, mental health, addiction, gender issues. It seems like it's just not it's not just us. It's everywhere. Right. And that's what I'm hearing from people overseas as well. Like they're seeing these things as well. Maybe not as intense as we are, but they're still seeing it. I mean, globalization is real. There's there's no delay. There's no lag. Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, he wrote a book on Islam, Al-Ulama, right. Just addressing this this topic. So, yes. And I would say many of the things are prevalent. Perhaps they're hidden. A little bit more in the Muslim lands overall, maybe they're a little bit less. There's still many positive things that we have, of course, in Muslim culture. Alhamdulillah. But I don't think we've ever been immune from it. I mean, if I think back in my life, several family members and friends and none of the explanations made sense back then of what was happening with them. And now it makes perfect sense. Like, how does somebody who is highly functioning now just living at home and they're like forty nine years old, like it doesn't like what happened? Oh, you know, they just don't get out much. You know, it didn't didn't make any sense. Or, you know, you hear you're praying a janaza and what happened? Oh, you know, young, healthy person, you know. Yeah. You know, just there was some accident happened. And of course, you learn that these are these are suicides, right, that are being sort of covered up. It's like what these are, these issues were happening. I just think now it's naturally there's more children in the family. They're older now and it's just more prevalent in society. But again, we're certainly not immune from it, whether it's in an American context or really anywhere in the world. So if you don't mind, I just want to back up real quick.
What made you. Or pushed you to get into this science. And before that, I mean, if you can just give us a brief background of your, you know, your background, like where you started in Islamic studies and what pushed you to study Islam. And then from there, what pushed you to go into this field? Sure. So I don't have an exciting story for what got me interested in Islamic studies. And to that I said, I know I know the stories are great. The stories are great. You know, a tragedy or something. I'm not diminishing or downplaying. Everyone has their own journey, of course. But my journey, I mean, it's all from Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala. I kind of grew up praying. Pretty normal sort of household. Wasn't wasn't a home of scholars or anything like that. I remember reading like the Quranic translations when I was eight or nine years old, even with the cryptic English that they had available then. I just kind of read it. I mean, why? It's from Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala. Just kind of read it and steadily just sort of, you know, kind of went along with life and prayer was important. Not missing prayer was important. Trying to do the right thing was important. Doesn't mean it was perfect, of course, by any means. But it wasn't this and this I think is really important for younger listeners. It wasn't this sort of really doing the wrong thing, maybe, or living a life we don't want to live and then just sort of flipping it completely. If that happened, that's a great blessing from Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala. But it doesn't have to be like that. Sometimes it can just be a slow sort of journey. And that's how it was for me until I probably got to about college and realized I think I kind of maxed out what I could learn at that time with my local sources.
And I wanted to go and study more in depth because I wanted to be able to answer these questions that I had for myself, which without having to always rely on someone or not being able to find an answer. And it's amazing, even in just a span of maybe 10 years, how many more resources there are. Alhamdulillah, that's a very beautiful thing to see. But so it just wasn't enough. So I was working in my degree was in information sciences. That's what I was working in. Pretty good job, Alhamdulillah. And then told the family that this is the path I want to go. And it was met with some concern. And now that I look back on it, I can totally understand why. It's like, what are you going to do? How are you going to support yourself? Which is understandable. And I think as you grow older and start your own family, you just kind of you understand more the perspectives. And the most beautiful thing is those people are really not for it, who are like now like your biggest supporters and everything. Like it's just well, there's like no animosity whatsoever. It's just it's just the cycle had to complete. Right. Alhamdulillah. So with that, you know, I went a bunch of places and tried to find my footing. It was a struggle until I finally went to Egypt and had a lot of misconceptions about Egypt. But then I met the brothers there and the students there. And I said, this is beautiful. It's like people from all different backgrounds, not just ethnically, but even. I think you're muted. I guess the Bluetooth, the battery went down.
Yeah, the wireless didn't work there either. No, still can't hear you. OK. Well, my show, so I guess he's going to come back. Yeah, so much. I want to ask him when he comes back, you know, where I'm glad he mentioned that, because a lot of times it's always people are waiting for like a glory story or, you know, somebody came. They weren't religious and they came back and saw the light, you know, which obviously is showing that he was born Muslim. Hamdallah. I want to ask him where it was and also where he who was it in his life that really just kind of was there someone in his life that kind of pushed him to to go on and choose to study Islam, because he mentioned he maxed out that and there was some inclination for him to want to go and study. Then he also mentioned that there was a. There was a. What do you call it? Not a struggle, but there was he was trying to go and find a way to go study until he ran into Egypt. So what that struggle was like is very, very interesting because that usually happens to a lot of people, you know, when they want to go study and they try to find different places to study and then apply for overseas to study can be kind of a kind of a task, you know. Yes, Hamdallah. I think it's just it's really intimidating, like the idea of just going to a different country entirely and, you know, going with a bunch of scholars, you don't know their language and you're going to try to learn from them and students that you don't know that well or at all. And a lot can be a real big challenge. Let's see if he's back.
So I'm going to go. Nope, still not working. I don't want to try. So I don't want to be no sugar. Only from joining. So, OK. About a year and a half or so. Yeah, I've known him for a while. I know since like 2014. Well, it is mastered in San Antonio. He was the man over there in San Antonio. And I had an organization for Congress to Islam and I used to give seminars in different misogynist. So the seminar I was giving was to converts and then to people that wanted to help with converts. So it was that seminar that we did for like convert coaches. So Hamdallah was nice. He was very welcoming, very warm. Community is very warm in San Antonio. Beautiful community. Mashallah to radical law. Yeah, it was nice. Masha'Allah. Actually, good. Still not. I think so. Let me ask you, did we hear you go out after I said I used to work in I.T.? That would have been hilarious. Well, I have no idea. I know the headphones died and it wasn't. But you said used to used to work in I.T. So it's perfect. It's excellent. Hamdallah. But yeah, so I was just you know, I just decided at some point that I just wanted to learn more. And then I saw this beautiful blend of not just ethnicities, but also just approaches and thinking from different parts of the world in Egypt, much which wasn't really what I had heard about about Egypt in general. So we went back and got married and found someone that wanted to come along as well. Hamdallah. Went and went back to Egypt and was able to complete the program there. So that was sort of the Islamic studies part.
I had always been pretty calculated about what I wanted to do when I came back. And I know that a lot of imams struggle, right? To say the least, the experiences are difficult. So I wanted to set myself up for success. And one of the pieces of advice I received was from a sheikh who actually at that time he had done marriage and family therapy, which is unheard of for a religious scholar and really still is even even in the Islamic sense. It's a little bit more now, but it's I still wouldn't say it's exactly common. So he used to say. He said, you start to let the guards out of the house when father dies, sometimes because you are me. So you're saying like, no. He had argued this case, you're saying you're still some say. We were saying, yeah, maybe my understood person say, that's what they had argued over and that's what they thought they spoke about themselves as. You should study marriage and family therapy, because if you can deal with couples, you can deal with anything. That's what he used to say. But that I said, OK, you know, but I was more into sort of in the mental health field, which, of course, there's some overlap, but there's specializations. So I came back from Egypt to San Antonio, Texas, and went there because I thought there was an opportunity. Didn't have any family there, but it seemed like it would be a chance to build something. So I went there and a year in, I joined a master's program in mental health. And I thought the first I thought I would just be fighting people because they'd be like, I'm this weird religious person. And there's all these enlightened secularists in graduate school. And the first class I took. The we're introducing ourselves, everybody's kind of introducing themselves and they say, you know, my name is Bob. I work at the methadone clinic. You know, my name is Jennifer. I work at the suicide hotline. Then they come to me and I'm like, you know, my name is Omar and I work as a religious director at a mosque in San Antonio. Everybody's head kind of. Did they mess up on admissions? And the the instructor, I remember he kind of paused. And he looks at me, he's like, oh. So you're an email.
Oh, now my title officially was a religious director, but, you know, obviously the work is often kind of interchangeable. So I said, yeah. So he said, OK, let me ask you a question. Do you see a conflict between your beliefs and science is the first question. So without hesitation, I was like, no. And it was kind of like one of those, like, no, next question type of deals. Not like, oh, no, no, I don't. You know, not one of those things. It was like a straight no. Can we move on to the next boring introduction? Right. And so he kind of pauses after I say that. And he's like, yeah, you know, I don't think I do either. And then he moves on. Now, very interesting. He was what we would call a humanist. So not very religious, but we have formed a friendship that lasts to this day. We've worked on research together. I invite him to the masjid for a program that we were having on sort of different perspectives. I'm not never compromising our values or trying to be something that we're not. But it's just interesting how things you know, I often say people respect you more when you're straight with them, rather than trying to dance around and try to fit into something that you're not. So from there, I just started going and going through the program. And I was really enjoying it. I saw a lot of benefit you could take to the community. I think because of my background, I was able to sort of take out what was problematic, because they talk a lot about cultural sensitivity and relating to who you're counseling. And I was you know, I could kind of see like cross reference things with the with the Quran and the Sunnah and just having a lot of fun. So I went through that and then decided, let's just keep going and went through with the doctorate. And my dissertation was on pornography use in the American Muslim community, because the idea, again, was to do something that would actually get to the community, not to just be in that ivory tower.
So, Alhamdulillah, that's what I did. And, you know, that was that's that was sort of the journey throughout. It was it was a long journey, but Alhamdulillah, it's still still evolving and moving on. But it's a lot of fun. Alhamdulillah. What was your motivation behind choosing that title, that topic for your dissertation? Were there certain some stats or what you saw in the community or communities which you heard, seen? I saw young people, people's parents, older people. This seemed to be a recurring theme that people were coming with. I struggle with this issue. I had one person in particular. I can't forget. He was older, very successful from the outside. If you're looking sort of from from the from a third bird's eye view, you know, had had kids. Nice job. Married a long time. Role model to the youth. Right. But he was telling me how he had planned his own suicide because of the cycle that he was stuck in, that he wasn't able to shake with his pornography addiction. And he was telling me in his town that he lived the exact highway and everything. And before he did that, he was at a restaurant. It's like a movie scene. He's talking to some random stranger and tells him what he's going to do. And the stranger says, you know, I think you're the most selfish person I've ever met. You're right. You're just going to take the easy way out and leave everyone that relies on you. You know, that that is close to you just to leave them out to dry and end your pain by just taking your own life. So Alhamdulillah, Allah gave him that guidance to not do that. And not only did he not do that, and of course, I'm not going to give any personal details, but he overcame his struggle. And he is someone who now helps in the community in his capacity with other people that struggle with this. So it was a very low point that he reached, but Alhamdulillah he was able to turn it around.
But that was that was one. But there was many, many incidences where this just kept coming up and coming up. So I said, you know, I wonder what I can write about, which might be of benefit to the community. I could have taken probably a safer route, you know, written something on like Islamophobia or something like that. But that's not the route that I wanted to take. The only problem is, and I mentioned this is. I could never tell my parents what my dissertation topic was on. You know, my dad would like ask me, like, you were doing something on addictions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Addiction. That's right. The only time they knew my topic was at the defense. And at that point, they don't care because you're like, Alhamdulillah, you know, you could have written on whatever you wanted to wrote. Right. It doesn't matter anymore. But Alhamdulillah, now we have, you know, more open conversations about it. But it's certainly there in the community. It doesn't just affect young men. It affects women as well. Young women. Really, no one is spared. Yes, proportionally, it's still greater with men. I mean, that's just reality of who we are biologically, psychologically. And the Prophet, Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, told us that this was certainly a challenge. You know, the opposite sex is a challenge for us. So, you know, but it's just the accessibility, the ability to remain anonymous. You don't even have to really pay for anything anymore. It's just been very, very challenging. And it's widespread. You know, we talked about earlier, it's not just limited to a certain region. It's really anywhere with an Internet connection. So that was sort of the idea behind that topic. And Alhamdulillah, I'm glad that I pushed through and did that. I think there's been some good things that have come from that, Alhamdulillah.
So this brother, SubhanAllah, like his pornography addiction was so severe that he was willing to commit suicide, even with having a wife and kids and all that. It just makes me think like, well, it must have been going through his head. On the one hand, you'd think he probably didn't have anyone to talk to. No support. On the other hand, you probably think he's constantly speaking to himself, saying, I'm such a hypocrite that I'm doing this. And then he does it again. And then he feels like even more of a hypocrite and just kind of destroys himself internally. So how would you deal with a situation like that? A brother in the community has that kind of problem or a sister with that kind of problem. How do you fix their thinking as they're destroying themselves mentally? Yeah, so it's getting caught in that whole shame cycle and it's never ending. So the biggest obstacle, which is still prevalent today, although maybe it's slightly better, is there's just no outlet. There's no one to even go to to say, I have this problem. I mean, who are you going to go to? You can go to your parents. You're going to go to someone in the community. Then you're going to be thinking, well, how could I tell them that? Right. Like, what do you mean? You're setting up the events for us at the message. What do you mean you have this issue? People have reached out to me who, you know, people would know them. There's no question about that. But, you know, it's a struggle. It's a struggle for some people. A lot of times, you know, there's the average age of exposure is getting younger and younger. It's not like people were intentionally trying to do this sometimes. So that lack of empathy, you know, it's just it's not really fair. Given the environment we grow up in with the devices and the technology and the accessibility.
So the biggest obstacle still is that there is no outlet to go for regardless of who it is. And so if you don't have anywhere to go, then what are you going to do? You're just going to keep retreating and going back and back and back. One of there's some outlets now. So the program Purify Your Gaze is something I joined recently, which is completely anonymous and online. You never have to reveal who you are. And there's various, you know, what they call coaching, similar to counseling. You have other resources, you know, things you can get through. You have a community there, again, all anonymous. And this is a big step, inshallah, towards that. But locally, you know, again, there's just the people that came to me, they don't need to hear this haram. They already know that. That's why they're there in the first place. They don't need me to tell them to lower their gaze. Right. And so they just need help navigating. And not everyone has. We use this word addiction. Not everyone has an addiction, but it's from sort of our filter, I think, is most of our natural disposition. Any amount of something we see like that, we're not comfortable with it. Right. And so, you know, if it's not excessive, it can be overcome. Right. But if there's no out, if there's no avenue to go, then it just can get worse and worse over time. You know, there's no question the best way to prevent it is early starting early. We don't have the luxury with our kids to not bring up these age appropriate, of course. But we got to start early and often and speak about these things, because if we don't, they're going to learn it somewhere else.
Yes. So that begs the question, is there a I guess one size fits all answer in regards to Islamic schools and sexual education? I remember I was at an Islamic school and there was a non-Muslim brother working there and he came to me and he's like. Brother, can you please, please, please tell these individuals, these people who are at this school, that they need a sex ed class, they will not let me let me teach sex ed. So you're Muslim and maybe they'll listen to you, but they won't let me teach sex ed. So what do you what are your thoughts on that sexual education courses, classes as a subject matter in in in in in school? And I'm saying in school because I don't know whether it's elementary high or high school, middle school or high school. So it would be interesting to survey Islamic schools across the country and see if there is any sort of formal Islamic sexual education class or sexual ethics. It's hard for me to answer that because I'm not in sort of that realm, but I know we work with a lot of schools. It is obligatory. I don't know any other way to go about it. Whether it's gender interaction, sexual morality, so many things. Right. One of the challenges with with with with this issue is that it is very much natural and a part of who we are. If we were on an island somewhere, we would still kind of figure out how to how humanity keeps going. Like this is natural. Whereas a lot of other things are sort of artificial, like gaming or even alcohol. Like if you take the alcohol away. We don't naturally crave alcohol. You crave it because you get in a social environment, you try it, you get addicted to it. Right. But it's not like something you're born with that. Oh, I just need some alcohol.
For me personally, even though I've been around those and I never had a desire to try alcohol for a variety of reasons. But, you know, for when it comes to the sexuality, that's something that's innate and it's a part of us. So it would be absolutely obligatory to to address it, because like I said, if we don't, we're going to learn it somewhere else. Somewhere else. Right. Yeah. My feeling is that most schools, Islamic schools are not teaching it. And the ones that are are maybe like a very stripped down version. Not many details, not much. I think and I think they want to teach. I just don't think they're I think they're intimidated by it and they're worried about teaching too much, too quickly or just not framing it properly for children. So, you know, may Allah protect our communities, such a difficult area to navigate these days. Sheikh, one question I was going to ask, you know, people need when they have these, whether it's depression or addiction and they need to reach out to someone. Do you recommend they reach out to even non-Muslims or do you recommend that they only look for counselors who are Muslim? So in an ideal setting, you would have a. I don't like to use these words, but just for since we use them often, a practicing Muslim counselor, I think that would be the most comfortable for someone. And certainly that's needed. That being said, you may have access to a Muslim counselor who doesn't have a practicing sort of or doesn't have sort of a view of sort of I don't know what the word is. Normative, let's call it normative Islamic beliefs. So sometimes we'll find Muslim counselors have they've kind of been secularized.
Right, because when you go through these programs, they're not teaching you, you know, they're very sort of biased, even though they say they're not. They're biased towards people who believe in religious beliefs and often see them as oppressive and things like that. Right. So if you are with someone like that, then that can actually cause more damage. Because imagine you have like a young teen or someone you're sending and they're getting these sort of mixed messages because they're not really getting the Islamic perspective on things. So that can be problematic. So it's very important that we vet who we are, who we would want to see, regardless of whether they have a Muslim name, regardless of whether they have a hijab on or not. That's very important that we do that. And we can ask some really, really basic questions, which will show us. So I'll just sorry, I'm going to interject, but I just want to give you an example of this that I heard from a Muslim woman that she was seeing a counselor who was non-Muslim woman. And she mentioned to her or said to her over their sessions that, you know, I'm a Muslim woman. I can't have relationships outside of marriage. And the counselor was kind of like, well, what's the worst thing if you did that kind of using like pushing her to test that boundary as though that boundary is like a negative thing that's causing unhappiness in her life. That you have to break through this. Like, what's the big deal if you did it? Why not try it? What's the worst thing that would happen if you did have sexual relationships outside of marriage? So I just want to give that as an example, like this is a non-Muslim counselor kind of almost counseling the person into haram. Because in the end of the day, their values as a non-Muslim is that, you know, probably very liberal values and that human beings are only happy if they're able to be free and liberal to do everything. So they from their value perspective, your religion is harming you and they're counseling that person outside of it.
So just going towards what you're saying, Shaykh, about, you know, the religion and the way they see religion and the biases that are there. No question about it. So those are things to be aware of. On the other hand, we have to acknowledge the reality not everyone's going to have access to someone who is a solid Muslim counselor. So that does that mean then that they just abandon everything? And I would say no, because in our professional training, we're taught you cannot impose your values on your client. OK, whatever those values are and you work with whatever the client wants. So if the client says that I'm a Muslim and I don't believe in A, B, C and D and these are the challenges I'm having, they're supposed to work with you on that. They're not supposed to say, well, you're a young man and you watch some porn. It's normal. I mean, it's not the end of the world. They're not supposed to say that. So that's an imposition of their values on you. Right. That's not working with your values. So you absolutely can. You know, I certainly wouldn't say if you don't have access to just forego any counseling whatsoever. But certainly, you know, you can you can ask questions about who you want to work with. Maybe see a couple and you know, you don't you shouldn't feel pressure to change who you are or that your beliefs don't make sense or something like that. That's absolutely not what a professional counselor should be doing. And Alhamdulillah, there certainly are many people who have benefited from from those who maybe aren't Muslim because they don't have access to that. The brother we mentioned earlier, he didn't really have access to Muslim counselors, but he was able to connect with people sort of similar values, let's say.
Right. And he was able to overcome his thing. So we don't want to limit it, but we just want to be aware of who we are going to, you know, reach out to. So in regards to. The receiver of the news of someone that may think that they're addicted. Right. I have two questions. The first of them being what is the sign or the, you know, when someone feels this or is doing, you know, consuming this type of content, are they considered an addict? And number two, if the imam, the best friend, the co-worker receives the information that, you know, the person reaches out to them and says, look, I just I can't talk to me and I trust you. You know, you're someone that I really look up to. You're someone that I respect. I'm addicted to this. I think I am. How should they navigate through that? Like you mentioned earlier, as much as I like for mentioning it, they don't want to hear that. It's wrong. You know, they don't want to hear, you know, they know that that's why they're coming to and they feel kind of guilty. What's the approach they should take? They just listen. Or what approach should they take? Maybe some words that can be used or, you know, to that degree. So those are the two questions. What's the sign that someone, you know, that a sign that they're probably addicted? And then secondly, the individual that hears that news, what type of trajectory should they be on? So the first question I'll just answer briefly. We did speak about that on the Athene podcast, which is kind of dedicated to that. But basically, how do you know if you're addicted to anything, whether it's alcohol, gambling, whatever? One sign is if you have if there's a major impairment. Disrupting your life.
So you are constantly getting to school late and your grades are slipping because you're up late. Smoking, watching, drinking, whatever the case may be, you have disconnected from your spouse because you are involved in, you know, X, Y, Z, whatever the case may be. You have you see your finances really being drained because of your spending behaviors, going back to excessive gambling. Right. Those are major impairments that are happening in life and are a sign that there's quite possibly an addiction to this substance or this process, whatever, whatever may be happening. So is there something major that's happening if if everything is sort of going along well, smoothly and you're falling into things every now and then, then I would say that's a bad habit that needs to be improved. Like we all have bad habits that we're trying to work on. Right. So, you know, in that case, because sometimes we psych ourselves out if we say I'm addicted to something. Right. Very powerful thing to say. Right. I mean, I have clients like in the last two years, whatever addiction they had, you know, maybe they've done it once. Or twice or so, you know, I smoked a blunt, you know, in 2020, that's the last time or something like that. Right. That's not an addiction. Right. But then they say, you know, 18 months passed and then I saw a friend who I hadn't seen for a while and then we smoked again and I feel terrible about it. That's not an addiction. That's a bad behavior that we're trying to improve. So we don't want to psych ourselves out. So for the people that love them and for them themselves, is there a major impairment on life functioning?
That's one way to tell for the addiction. In terms of the imam or someone receiving that information, sometimes the best thing we can say is not really sure what the answer is or how to help at this moment. But I appreciate you trusting me enough to tell me and let's work on some resources we can find to help you get through this. My experience has been with, especially as the education is improving around these topics, that many of our religious leaders, Alhamdulillah, I think they do understand that this is not really something which is, you know, in their training. You know, we don't learn addictions counseling when we're doing our Islamic studies. So I think they are open to say that I don't have the answers to that. But inshallah, we can find some resources for you. And even if that means, again, you can work with, let's say, a non-Muslim counselor if that's all you have. But that doesn't mean that your imam or scholar cannot be part of that process as well. Right. Because obviously the counselor is not going to maybe know everything that you're saying, but you say, hey, this is this is important to me. This is sort of my religious leader. You can connect with him if you're ever lost and certain things like that. So, you know, in that way, I think there's more of a receptivity to say that you're not an evil person because you're involved in something like this. I don't think an evil person would be there telling you how they want to stop this. That doesn't sound like an evil person to me. Right. So and we can actively work and having sort of our network. So I know a lot of imams now they have sort of like trusted, you know, like this is my three or four trusted counselors I can refer. I have, you know, a female counselor. I have, you know, whoever else, someone for family counseling, whoever, whatever the case may be.
But I've spoken to them. You know, that's that's where we can take the responsibility. I know what they believe. I know the approach they're taking. And I'm comfortable recommending them and referring them to be part of the process because the religious leader can still very much be part of the process. But there's obviously certain things which the training is not going to allow them to maybe help as much. So we have a bunch of questions, but before we get to them, we do like to play a game of rapid fire questions. If you're up for it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Right. So start off easy. Chocolate or vanilla? Chocolate or vanilla? Chocolate. The darker, the better. All right. Chai or coffee? Neither. Controversial. I know. You don't drink caffeine? I don't. I don't. Not for any particular reason. I just never kind of got into it. Yeah, I'm kind of the same way. Very rarely will I drink caffeine. That is what? Mounds or oceans? Both. But if you had to pick one. Oceans. All right. Your favorite city, but not Mecca or Medina or Al-Quds? Toronto. Really? You're from Toronto, right? So I'm not, but I have I have a fond place. Toronto is where I started my Islamic studies at ISHO. Masha'Allah. So that has a like I learned my Arabic grammar in Toronto. So when I got when I went to Egypt, I was very adamant to tell them, oh, you know, you learned here.
I said no, no, no, no, no, no. I learned the basis of everything I learned in this language. Arabic language was in Toronto. Masha'Allah. Speaking of language, what language do you wish you knew? I deeply regret I used to be fluent in Spanish. I mean, I could roll those R's like nobody's business. I still can, but I lost fluency. And that's disappointing. That would be a very valuable skill in many. I mean, that was just practical life. Something I wish I had kept up with. I'm guessing living in San Antonio and your name is Omar, people started speaking in Spanish randomly. Well, I was Omar. I grew up in Southern California, a very large Latino population. So in my high school, there were two other Omars, but their name was Omar Badillo and Omar Oregel. And then it was me. Right. People don't even know what I am anyway. But yes, I would get that a lot. Didn't have facial hair, just had a little, little hairs here, you know, so I could I kind of swing it. And then I come in there, you know, like. But yes, it was it was not. And we had we had someone who lived with us, kind of helped around the house and stuff like that. And she only spoke Spanish. So it was constant immersion. And, you know, it was it was like our code language around other people, between me and my mom and brothers. So they kept up on a little bit better than I have. But I noticed when I get back in the environment, like, you know, because speaking is the first thing that goes. But years later, when I was working in an environment where they were all speaking Spanish, like one of them said, you know, tell him to do this or something. And I went and I moved whatever that item was. And they're like. What happened?
I said, well, you know, I understood everything you were saying. I just I can't respond. And I oh, we better be careful speaking in front of you. But yes, that was a very long answer to Spanish again. Shalma someday. So what's the most interesting thing you've ever tasted or ate? It's a tough one. So I'm a big, big Asian food fan in general. I think I have an Asian gene somewhere in my body. And so we used to go to this Chinese restaurant all the time, Halal Chinese. And we would always get the same thing. So they had this thing on the menu. It was like Peking duck. And I just I was just I want to be like, I'm going to get the duck. I'm going to get the duck. And my mom would be like, why do you want to get the duck? No, I want to get the duck. So finally, I got the duck. It was really expensive. And let's just say it was interesting. I don't think I got through more than maybe half a bite. So I had to bite half a bite. So that's that's like the word. Was it the orange taste that got to you? Was it the orange taste that got to you? I don't know. It just didn't work for me. Mom was right. All right. What job do you think you'd be the worst at? The worst at? A lot of jobs. Probably politician. I would be pretty I wouldn't be very good at that. You know, lying every other sentence is not something I'm particularly comfortable with. I don't think I'd be a very good I don't think I'd be a very good politician.
What was your first job? My first like real job was. I was working at a UPS store. Working, I'll tell you a funny story. Delivery man. No, like inside the store, not the UPS person. So I was working and I got hired, I think, around the holiday times. And I was working one day was Juma and it was the holiday season, like December. And I asked my manager, I said, you know, I got to go to Juma, but there's no one here to cover. And, you know, he was kind of like his answer was kind of like kind of got to be there. He didn't immediately say no. So I said, well, I got to go to Juma. So here I go out there at one o'clock in the afternoon. I just I just closed up the store. I know that's normal now because of the work shortage. But I was a pioneer and just saying I'm going to I'm just going to close the door whenever I want. So I closed it because I said this is a photo which is over, you know, earning a living. So I closed. I said, like, you know, I'll be back and back a little bit or whatever. And I came back and I swear, subhanAllah, I have that the traffic that came to that store after was ridiculous. I couldn't even keep up. Some dude came in there to like ship tires to people. Like, you know how expensive it is to ship tire, you know, in a UPS store. The line was just it was just madness how much it was. So that was the baraka of Juma. All right. Last question. If you had to be an animal, what animal would you choose?
What animal would I choose? I would be one of those. I would be a snow leopard because they can you know, they're fast. They can get what they need to get done, but they can also hide like in complete daylight and you can't even see them. So sometimes I do wish I could just kind of hide out and blend in, but then just kind of come out as necessary. So I'm going to go with the snow leopard. And by the way, a pro tip. Don't ever take your kids to the zoo after like 3 p.m. because all the animals are sleeping and so they don't really see anything. So we didn't actually see the snow leopard, but just a life tip for the animals. There you go. All right. We got a bunch of questions. Let's start off with this one. How do Muslims deal with depression? Please offer some practical examples. I'll add to this. You mentioned the example of somebody who is, you know, depressed and staying at home the whole time and doesn't have any motivation and, you know, maybe staying at their parents' house or something like that. So in cases like that, how do you deal with that? If you're the person or if you're the family trying to help them get help and maybe they're resisting it. So I think resistance is probably the norm, but all we can do is see what we're trying to do is we're trying to just increase our chances. What is the best shot we have? Getting upset at them and telling them how they're never going to amount to anything and how we're spending so much on your tuition and you're not going back to that's not really going to do increase chances. Right. All we can do, as painful as it is, is to keep gently reminding them and, you know, coming at a place of deep, deep concern. What we care about you. That's why we want you to go see this person. Right. That's the best thing we can do when we try to bring it with the heat that doesn't that just pushes people away.
So when you see someone in that, you know, like I said, denial is going to be really the first step. And the reality is, if they don't want to take a step, there's not anything anyone can do about it. Right. They have to take the first step of, yes, I'm at least willing to do something about it. So try to be be supportive. And, you know, a lot of times there's a lot of anger from family members. Sometimes it's rightfully so, but it's just not going to help them get better. You know, almost certainly. And then, of course, there's you know, we need to distinguish there's there's clinical depression. There's just feeling sad. Right. I mean, the Prophet, Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam, obviously had a lot of sadness when he lost people that he loved. But, you know, that doesn't mean that we jumped to everything and say it's depression. Right. If I got a bad grade on a test and we may say I'm depressed, but you're not really depressed. You're just sad about what happened. Now, if that leads to not wanting to go back to class, staying in your room, missing the next quarter, now these are signs of more serious. So it's sort of a level. And again, it goes back to major life impairments. What is it? Although this is not necessarily an addiction, but, you know, we're all going to be sad at times. Right. But that doesn't mean that that's like that that's a clinical level of clinical level depression. This is a good question as well. Sheikh Omar, considering the work you do with vulnerable populations with mental health challenges or faith related challenges, how do you preserve your sanity and well-being while being of service? I talk a lot in my classes about self-care, and I actually will have my students do self-care projects rather than just paying lip service to it.
So self-care, the idea that it's OK to say I'm not going to, you know, or like I'm going to work till this time and then I'm going to stop. I'm not going to go beyond that. I'm not going to feel guilty about it. Because, again, if it's the plane analogy, right, put your put your mask on if the oxygen goes down before helping somebody else. If you can't do that, everybody's going to go down. But if you put your mask on first, you're giving the greater, greatest chance for for a lot of people to get through. If, you know, and love forbid there's some tragedy on the plane going down. So I do a lot of that. So, you know, I'll put things like I won't work on certain days, certain times. I'll block time off. I think also I just naturally have a personality. It doesn't get super involved. And I'm able to sort of separate, you know, because, you know, at the end of the day, it's up to Allah subhana wa ta'ala. So that doesn't mean you're not a human being or that you're not affected. But I think just naturally my personality, I'm sort of able to distance myself a little bit. I think other counselors, that's more of a challenge for them. But ultimately, you know, you do sort of I don't want to say desensitize, but you figure out a way to sort of navigate your life without taking everything on. Because that's just that's just too intense. I mean, you'll burn out in six months. Right. You just won't make it. That's why we see very, very high burnout rates and like crisis counseling, trauma counseling. Super intense stuff. Right. So you have to also kind of know your personality a little bit and know what you can take on and what boundaries you can set. It's so challenging, subhanAllah. I mean, I'm sure Sheikh Abdullah as an imam, you kind of get this too, like where there's like a transference of that emotion. They come to you with all these like worries, anxieties, and they complain to you.
And then you listen to them and then they leave and they feel a bit better because they got to like talk to you about it. But then you're feeling all the anxiety after they left. You're like, man, that guy's life is so bad. I feel so bad for him. And like it's kind of weighing on you. The other thing that happens sometimes is somebody will come and like complain about their wife, for example. Like my wife does this, does this, does this. And he like complains. And you hear him out and you talk to him and, you know, give him some advice. And then afterwards, the thing he's complaining about, which never bothered you before, starts to pop up. Watch yourself Sheikh, watch yourself. But then you realize like subhanAllah, it only came into my mind because somebody else said it. But you know, we're still feeble beings as human beings. It's difficult to take it on. But those are some great points about like forcing yourself to disconnect and give yourself time off. It's really important. JazakAllah khair. Let's see a few other questions. Here's a good one. Question, does exercise, should exercise be recommended for someone who is suffering porn addiction? Is a gym specifically recommended? Thank you and please pray for those dealing with this problem. Yes, samaa Allah, give relief to all those struggling. Exercise is recommended for everybody, no matter what is happening. There are so many wonderful, incredible benefits. There's benefits just to walking. People that just walk normally every day are less depressed. There's something about going on a walk, which is just a game changer. So there it's very, exercise is for everyone. I think what perhaps what they're saying here is that in a gym environment, you know, maybe people's dress or being in close quarters. I think that's what they're trying to get at. Well, this is one of the blessings of the pandemic. I mean, you don't have to go to the, you don't have to go to the gym anymore to try to get your swole on. Right.
You have, I mean, you can, I have a full on machine that just goes on the wall now. I don't, I haven't gone to the gym since the pandemic started. So there's many, many options at different price points as well. Right. It's not just like limited to, to there's numerous, numerous things that you can do. So if that really is an issue, then I don't see there's any reason why you can't do that in another environment and be just as effective. The issue of you see, it's about getting to the root of the problem, because you're always going to be around people that are not dressed in accordance with what your beliefs and values are, or speak in a manner of speech that matches you. So that's always going to be a, you can't just kind of hide. Right. And avoid it. But certainly in a context like this, where maybe something is really out there, then you do have options. But yes, exercise for everyone, regardless of what's happening. It's been shown to be effective with depression. I mean, it's very, very important. So they call behavior activation or something like that. I'm trying to learn the lingo a little bit. Psychobabble. But, you know, it's an interesting point there, because I think there's this question of like, is there more mental health issues now or what did it always exist and just wasn't diagnosed? And sometimes I think there is more now because we're just sitting at home or sitting at the office, sitting on your office chair all the time and that lack of doing things and working. And, you know, in the past, you'd have to walk to get water out of the well and bring it back to your house. Like you're going to be working all day. That probably did help people with anxiety and depressions. And it's just like we're past the hour. So I don't want to go to more through more questions.
We really appreciated your time, Sheikh Omar, and I hope, inshallah, that you'll be back with us soon. Insha'Allah. One question we do like to see both. One question just as we end, we like to ask, is there advice you would like to give your younger self? Advice I would give my younger self. I do firmly believe that everything sort of happened the way it was supposed to happen. So I don't know if I would do anything over. But that's not really an interesting answer to your question. So to answer your question, I would say there's nothing I'm not trying to word this. Being yourself is good enough. So a lot of times, you know, growing up, you know, you need to you need to speak more. You do this more. You do that more. And now at this point in life, I'm like, Alhamdulillah, that's how it was. I'm glad I didn't do what other people told me. It just wasn't who I was. So you're good enough as you are, always with room for improvement, of course. So that's awesome advice. And inshallah, we'll be back next week with another guest and really happy to have had Dr. Omar Hussein. Hopefully he'll join us again soon. Insha'Allah. JazakAllah khair. And Assalamu alaikum until next week. Wa alaikum salam. You owe me a gym sesh, by the way. A gym session? Yes. Years ago, you were supposed to, you know, me, you, Rehan, the whole situation. What happened? What happened, Sheikh? I'm ready. I'm ready.
Oh, look at this. He's stuttered. He's stuttered. Oh, my goodness, man. Come on, man. He's working out at home and you got all these. He's got the little tonal machine. I got I got I got soft at home. You need to come out to play, man, on the field. What's the program you got going there? Maybe I need to join up. Bismillah. Let you know, man. I'm actually doing this weekend with the young guys here at Epic. Yeah, yeah. Better go off. You can miss. Good seeing you. Likewise. Take care. Thanks.
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