Dogma Disrupted
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The Coalition Fighting Radical Gender Ideology in Schools
With the introduction of radical gender ideology material in schools as early as elementary, parents are growing more concerned about their children’s education. What’s more concerning are rules that no longer allow parents to opt their children out of material that they deem inappropriate. How can parents best voice their concerns and firmly put their foot down on issues like these?
Imam Tom Facchine invites Kareem Monib and Sameerah Munshi from the Coalition of Virtue to discuss their involvement in this fight for parental rights in school systems.
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This transcript was auto-generated using AI and may contain misspellings. If we cannot secure the next generation, this is an existential crisis. I really do think it rises to that level. If Muslims do not participate in the local politics, we may lose a generation. It's not a small issue. Don't blow it off and say, well, I'll just teach him, you know, proper sexual ethics when he comes home. It's not going to work that way. They're going to have some very deep-rooted issues in terms of how they relate to the religion itself. As-salamu alaykum. Welcome back to Dogma Disrupted. And today we are going to talk about a very, very hot topic, the introduction of radical gender ideology and sexual material into our public education system, particularly in the younger grades of elementary school. Kareem Munib and Samira Munshi, both of you welcome very much to the program. So you two have been very intimately involved in this particular issue, and a lot of folks have taken notice. It's blown up basically into a national issue. And the timing is not accidental, okay, because this is something that has already been going on at different places in the United States. We saw from the Muslim community side, we saw sort of the protests in Dearborn, Michigan and Hamtrak when parents were sort of, you know, sort of showing up to school board meetings and protesting against some of the things that were being done in schools. And something similar happened in your school district, and it blew up to national importance. So I was wondering if you could just give us sort of a walkthrough or a brief summary, a timeline of some of the events and how this escalated into a national issue in your own backyard. Sure, Samira, you want me to take this one? So in March, in late March, Montgomery County Public Schools, that's the name of the district, they announced on their website that they're not going to allow parents to opt out of any classroom, any classes that have LGBT, sexual
orientation, gender identity curriculum. And that was in late March. And they introduced these books that they approved into all classes, into all English language arts classes. So we're not just talking about, you know, sexual ed. So these are these are all classes for all grades. And they want to teach these books. And they announced that nobody can opt out and they're not going to inform parents when it's being taught. So that was in late March. And then in April, the community started to get together, we had a meeting at a mess shed with about 30 people, 30 parents in attendance. And we, you know, we decided to start organizing rallies at the at the Board of Education. And so we've had four rallies since then. And things have just gone from from 30 people to close to 1000 people at the rallies. That's wonderful. Now, give us a sense, because one of the things that I think detractors often sort of say is, well, you know, you guys are just sort of protesting against inclusion material, right? Just, you know, the very fact that there are like two dads in a family setting. What's the nature of the material that was being introduced? How sexually explicit was it? Was it simply innocent? You know, just the fact that there are, you know, non standard quote, unquote, couples existing? Or was it more sort of insidious and disruptive than that? It was it's much more than than just characters in a book, these books. I'll give you an example. There's a book called pride puppy, which is a story about a dog that gets lost in a pride parade. And, you know, the dog goes through and it's a very colorful book. It's a kid's book. Then at the end of the book, it tells the kids to circle things that they might find in the inside of the book. So some of the things that they're supposed to circle are, you know, underwear, leather. So those kinds of things and this is this is this is
for fourth graders. There is another book called Intersectional Allies, which which just talks about it has a hijabi on the cover, first of all. And the whole book is just about, you know, the same the same topic and actually, you know, goes further and says we're we're going to change the norms, you know, change the sexual norms. So and then there's there's lesson plans and teacher guides that go along with all this material. And, you know, they encourage the teachers to ask the kids for pronouns. If the children push back and say, aren't there only two sexes? The teacher is supposed to say she's supposed to challenge that and say, not necessarily, you know, you can be anything you want and this kind of thing. So these books are are really a celebration of of these things, not just not just characters portrayed in a book. And it seems even beyond a celebration, it's an invitation, right? Would you say that it's an invitation to question that they're actually trying to encourage children as in as young as elementary school age to question their sexuality and question their gender and almost to not question it now becomes the new sort of uncool thing or retrograde thing? I think that's particularly significant. The specific question to Samira, you know, we have noticed the conscription of Muslim females in a lot of ideological material for LGBTQ or pride parades or in this case, you know, in these sorts of books, you know, as somebody who is a practicing Muslim, who wears a hijab yourself, first of all, first of all, how does that make you feel? And second of all, what's the game that's being played by these people sort of conscripting that image? Yeah, I think women in general, like in Islam, obviously many of us wear hijab and it's a very visible symbol that Islam is something that is going to be associated with LGBTQ.
If you put hijabis on the cover of these books, so they want for a long time, Muslims are, I guess, like a used minority in that way that we bring diversity into put a hijab on the cover of a book. It's assumed that, oh, now Muslims are on board with this ideology. So for me, it feels like they're trying to rewrite what Islam is in a sense. They're trying to rewrite our values and tell Muslims what to believe. If you have a young Muslim girl who is, you know, like maybe she doesn't know everything about Islam yet, she's still learning and she sees a hijabi on a cover versus she doesn't see a hijabi anywhere else represented in the media, what is she going to think? She's going to associate being hijabi with having these views. So it's very dangerous, especially for, I think, our youth, for little Muslim girls who are looking at these things and seeing themselves represented. But unfortunately, they're only represented in a negative way, at least in terms of Islam. They're not represented by real Muslims, by practicing Muslims who I feel like in general, we need to do a better job at showcasing how real Muslims live, how real Muslims act and what we believe in, in general, just having Muslims in the public. So, yeah, I guess for me, it feels it feels hurtful because I know my value in the eyes of society, at least, is just a token I'm there to use as a diversity point. Versus the reason I wear hijab is for the sake of Allah. And for me, it means a lot more than just putting it, you know, like on a banner and showing people that I'm someone that you can point to and say that your movement is diverse. So I guess that's so profound. So it works in two directions, you're saying. In one direction, the sort of LGBTQ, I think, ideology and movement has taken pains to show
itself as not being predominantly white or predominantly sort of privileged or operating from a position of power. OK, and so the conscription of minorities and Muslims being a minority among minorities is part of that game of lending credibility. But then also what you're saying is that it is, again, another invitation. Right. It's doing dawah to all the Muslims and especially Muslim women to say, like, look, this is one of your own. They support this. You know, this is totally fine. You can be and how many sort of educators and I've obviously confronted several educators in my own time, you know, who when there there is a little bit of pushback with these things that, hey, that's not real Islam or real sort of practicing Muslims don't believe that, you know, that gives them a response to be like, well, so and so does and they're a Muslim. Right. And so it's kind of this wedge tactic trying to kind of split our ranks and play this sort of very, very old colonial playbook tactic, which is, you know, good Muslim, bad Muslim, good Arab, bad Arab or whatever. They've almost like created a cast of acceptable Muslim figures that they can then go to to put in either political positions or even just use for for optics. And that is an extremely frustrating experience for all of us. That might be dovetail into another question. Maybe either of you could could answer. Have you seen this game, this this game being played out in the local education politics in general? What are other Muslims doing and saying? Like, it's not it's not true that all Muslims are going to be part of Coalition of Virtue. Have you seen sort of this recruitment of, you know, for optics of certain Muslim figures, either at the local level or at the national level, sort of to shore up credibility for the sort of moves that they're trying to make? Is that something you guys have seen? Yeah, I think we've definitely seen it, just the type of pundits that they put on these
talk shows kind of they specifically get Muslims who have differing ideologies to explain the movement from their eyes and basically say the exact same things that the non-Muslims are saying. So they they're getting Muslims to talk from a non-Muslim perspective, but because they're Muslims, they're using their identity as their credibility. Yeah, it's a very scary time, you know, it's very strange because the very last interview that we did for Dogma Disrupted talked about sort of this dissonance between the internal and the external that you could be have all the trappings of a Muslim, but on the outside, but you could be sort of on the inside, have an entirely different paradigm working. And that's something that with this particular issue, which is kind of like a lightning rod issue, we see it kind of drawn to the fore. So so let's let's go back to, OK, Coalition of Virtue Forms. What tell us about the decision to to to make this coalition in the first place? What was the idea behind that and what are its goals? So actually, what's interesting is that just before all this Montgomery County stuff came up, I got interested in this topic. I got very concerned, actually, and I was following the news. I had I had not been on Twitter much before. And I was starting on Twitter. I was starting to find out what's going on in the country more. And and this issue was was was so big in my mind. I remember seeing just the, you know, the stories about girls having their their breasts removed at 13 years old and just thinking to myself, like, where are the Muslims? Like, where's the outrage that the Muslims should be showing to this? And I felt like it was, you know, it was just sort of like this, well, that they're doing their thing and we're doing our thing. And that's OK. They do their thing. They're different than us and we're different than them. So they just do their thing and that's it. And I just I just felt that that was such that that's not what Muslims are mandated to
do by Allah. We're mandated to command good, promote good and prohibit evil wherever we see it. And we have a duty towards humanity. We have almost a cosmic duty. Allah says you're the best ummah that was brought out for mankind. Those are really a big, a big duty. And I just felt that that there was something wrong. And at that time, there was a Maryland law that was being proposed to use Maryland state funding for transgender surgeries. And so that's actually that. So me and a friend, you know, we started to look into, you know, who is proposing the bill? What can we do? How can we inform the Muslim community? And actually, that's that's how Cove started. It started with with that issue. And then very shortly after that, that Maryland bill was was being proposed and it eventually got passed. The Montgomery County issued their Montgomery County Public Schools issued their statement saying that the opt out is being revoked. So we, you know, we sent out a blast, you know, about that issue. Other organizations care did as well. And and that's and that's how Cove basically started. And so we just devoted ourselves to this issue right away from the get go. And so along the way, what sort of support have you found? You know, this is something that, again, you talk about the first maybe couple rallies, only a couple hundred people. And now you're at a thousand plus. You know, how do you evaluate or gauge the support that Cove and the issue in general has has garnered and who seems to be lining up to support you in this particular issue? Right. So, you know, by and large, we're seeing religious Christians, mostly Ethiopian Orthodox Christians, so immigrant community. But we're also seeing Catholics attend the rallies and, you know, other other Protestant
groups. So mostly mostly it's been people of faith that have really have really supported us. And that's actually the people that that that we're trying to work with, because we feel like those are the people that actually share our values and they share our values based on an actual belief in God and a belief in revelation and many of the things that we also believe in. So their their worldview and their their their values are just very similar to ours. So that's been where we've seen the most support. There are I've also been secular organizations that are concerned with this issue, like Moms for Liberty is a very well-known organization. They're a national organization. They've they've also been attending the rallies as well. But like I said, they're the vast majority. I mean, at the on the rally, the rally on June 27th, which was actually the largest one. So that rally had about 600 Orthodox Jews and about 300 Muslims. Wow. Well, you can see starting from where Muslims were, where a majority of the rally Christians to where the Christians are the majority at this point. But we're all working together. Alhamdulillah. You had said Orthodox Jews. Did you mean to say? No, I said I meant Orthodox Christians. I'm sorry. Yes, specifically Ethiopian Orthodox Christians. I see. Have you gotten any support from any sort of like surprising actors or people who you wouldn't have maybe anticipated would support you in this particular endeavor? That's a good question. I honestly, I would say no, because the people who support us are the people who obviously, you know, believe the same things on this issue that we do. Go ahead, Samira. No, I would say that at least like from my perspective, at least out of people, I know people have reached out to me online. I've gotten some surprising people that I felt like might not have supported me or I've
seen speak on the opposite side of similar issues, have supported me on this issue and support other Muslims on this issues. And I think specifically a lot of what we've been calling fence sitters, a lot of Muslims who are not sure whether they should speak up or stay quiet, a lot of Muslims that at least I know have spoken up and spoken to me, at least have said like they support what I do, they support COVE, they support the movement and everything. So I found that very kind of like beautiful, but very surprising. Yeah, I mean, what I have in mind, I've seen at least the national level, there have been many gay people who have come out in support of these issues because they feel like their, you know, sort of political capital is being hijacked in order to ram through, you know, this sort of very explicit and cynical, honestly, and cynical sexualization of elementary school kids, the introduction. And that's why sort of the terms of the debate is really going to, I think, shape who's going to win at the end, because, you know, we're trying to say this is not inclusion, this is pornography, right? And so there are even there's a group, I think, called Gays Against Groomers. And there's some other sort of high profile individuals who have, you know, despite, you know, you would somebody, according to the narrative, would assume that that person would be in support of this thing. But they say, no, this is this is a bridge too far. And this is something that is actually a betrayal of sort of what we stand for rather than a furthering of it. So that's kind of what I had in mind. What about the opposition who sort of has opposed you? And of course, I'll add on that last question for this, too. Have you had any surprises in who has stood against you in this in this fight? Well, we yes, I mean, we've been, of course, the the the opposition, which is, you know, mostly from the liberal, the liberal side has opposed us in Maryland is a blue state.
So all the Board of Education members are from, you know, are Democrats and the county council is a Democrat. So they've you know, they they completely oppose us. We you know, one thing that I was surprised about, I'm not some I'm not surprised that that they that they oppose us, of course, but I was surprised about the reaction from some segments of the Muslim community that, you know, they really they they really have bought into the inclusion language so much so that so so much so that they see what we're doing as concerned parents. As concerned parents, they see that as dangerous almost to the Muslim community. They see it as, you know, that we're we're aligning with the bad guys now because the bad guys are the people on the right. And they because they because they support because they support parental rights, that can't be a good thing no matter what. And and also if we join forces with them, then, you know, they're going to just turn around and and and kill us all. You know, this is the arguments that are being made. So that that was very surprising. I, you know, I I'm still, you know, I'm still trying to understand what's happened in the past, you know, three to five years in the Muslim community. I feel like I maybe have not been as in touch with with where things have been going, especially amongst the youth and so forth and how they've assimilated a lot of these issues. So I guess, you know, when when when all this came out, you know, we had certain figures, certain Muslim figures who really, really pushed back. One of them is Wajahat Ali, for example, came on national media and said that the Muslim parents are making a big mistake. So that's that has been that has been a bit of a I guess a surprise to me, but for many
others, it hasn't been a surprise because like you said, there's there's a there's a certain segment of the Muslim community that that has, you know, I think pushing the theological limits of our religion, so to speak. Yeah, I guess I can speak a little bit about like you mentioned, the younger segment of Muslims in America, like millennials, Gen Z. I feel like a lot of Muslims around this time period, the Islam that we've kind of like kept during like post 9-11 America, in post 9-11 America, a lot of how we've seen Islam and like in our own Islam has been framed by political rhetoric. And so a lot of Muslims are trying to or have been trying to keep their heads down and been trying to move along with any political movement that says that they support us in any way because they're afraid that, you know, if the argument goes, if you know, if I don't have a segment or a group of people who will support me, then how can I practice Islam at all? So the idea has been, OK, we can give a little bit. Here and there, just so that we have a base or some non-Muslims to support us so that we can continue practicing Islam. But what that has become is we're slowly letting go of different parts of Islam that are that we don't know where it'll stop. So I think that there is still that segment of Muslim. In America, where they feel like let's just let's keep our heads down, let's be quiet, let's not disrupt the status quo, because, you know, maybe they'll take a little bit here and there. But at the end of the day, you know, at least I can live with, you know, like my own beliefs, at least I can pray in my office, whatever. So I think that's kind of what we're seeing a bit that segment of Muslims where they're still afraid to speak out. But I think it's pretty clear at this point, at least to me, that we're not going to be able to do that for long. We have to stand up. We have to say, no, this is against my religion. No, I'm not going to allow you to teach these things to my children.
I think this, you know, the importance of this can't be underestimated or understated. And I think that this is why this issue has been such a lightning rod and attracted so much attention, because I see nothing less at stake in this than the soul of Islam in America. Right. You have sort of one paradigm or understanding where people are sort of there are there are pressures, I think, external pressures to secularize and privatize Islam and to the OK, it's what you do in your home. That's what you do at the mosque. But you can't really have anything to say about how sexuality is going to be taught or about gender, how it's going to be taught. And we expect you to kind of clap along and go along with everything else that's that's being had. And the motive, as you said, is it's sort of a political calculus. Are we willing to trade away large portions of our deen and sort of the comprehensive nature of our deen, the ability to contribute and even perhaps improve the society around us for acceptance and for the sort of political promise of toleration? Ironically, which is not really bearing fruit or seeing that it seems like there might be some sort of betrayal of that promise, because when push comes to shove and rubber meets the road, I think another thing that this issue has done, it's ripped sort of the mask off of the idea of liberal tolerance, is that liberal tolerance only goes so far as you're willing to conform. And if you're not willing to conform your values, you're not willing to conform sort of an ideological level, then it's a problem. They're willing to tolerate your skin color, your ethnicity, your identity. But it can only register sort of toleratable categories based off of identity and not really something that is fundamentally, ethically, ideologically challenging to it, which I just find absolutely fascinating and amazing and honestly inspiring.
Because you've seen it just as you've seen sort of disappointing people in the media. I think that you've seen a lot of ulama and a lot of dua'at and people who maybe back in 2015, right, when gay marriage was first sort of made into federal law. People thinking, well, maybe if we just leave it alone, it's not going to be a big deal. Well, fast forward eight years and now we see, OK, it is a really big deal. And I think we've seen an about face from a lot of people and I think it's dawned on a lot of people and a lot of people have woken up finally, whether it's too late or not. Obviously, that's a discussion for another time, but finally waking up and realize the importance of coming together and pushing back on these sorts of issues. So I just want to commend you all for what you're doing, because you're providing the gunpowder, if you will, or you're providing the platform and the conversation piece, I think, that around which all this stuff is happening. And it's very, very important. I just want to make a point on that of the people in the past who maybe the scholars or the dais who have maybe not been on the most proactive on speaking against these things in the past who are speaking out now. I feel like it's very important to give them a chance. I feel like the Muslim community oftentimes harms itself more than others harm us in kind of tearing people down and kind of being very, I guess, judgmental towards our own people. I think it's very important to recognize that, you know, maybe they have done some harm in the past, but now they're trying to reconcile themselves. They're trying to ask for forgiveness, become better in that way and try to do better. So I think in general, we're all in this together. We keep tearing each other down for things we've done in the past or things that we might not have spoken out about.
I think that will kind of harm the movement now going forward. So brilliant. Brilliant. I couldn't agree more and I couldn't have said it any better myself. So you mentioned you mentioned two larger groups, OK, such as CARE. How supportive has CARE been? Because, you know, CARE has mixed reviews throughout the Muslim community. And there's a lot of difference between CARE National and local sort of CARE chapters. How supportive has CARE been in this particular fight that we're waging here? CARE has been very actively supporting us. They've been very involved from the very beginning. They were they were amongst the group of parents that that got together with us in that first meeting with 30 people. So they were there from the beginning and and have been have been very active. They just recently filed a FOIA request, Freedom of Information Act request, to get some of the emails and things, private emails and so forth, that went back and forth with principals and administration at Montgomery County Public Schools. So I commend their stance in Maryland. That's fantastic. And I think that illustrates another dimension to this whole thing, which is the importance of Muslim institutions. Right. Because you have, you know, COVE is one is one sort of coalition. And then CARE is something very, very different. You know, we need capacity. Right. We need legal capacity. We need political capacity. And sort of they're working together. Right. You see how the two sort of institutions and there's others. Right. That they're all sort of pieces in this puzzle that fit together, that can actually make a big difference when they work together in their sort of discrete spheres of activity. So that's extremely hopeful to see. And I'm hoping that, you know, going for the next five, 10 years, I think Muslims need to keep that on their radar for where are our gaps? Right. What are sort of the gaps in the institutions that we have? You know, what spheres of activity are do we not have enough support in?
And how can we sort of build that out so that when things like this happen, now we're able to act, we're able to move, we're able to sort of work in tandem with each other to actually make a difference? So that's that's very good to hear. I also want to ask, you know, you mentioned Mothers for Liberty, M4L. Now, this is a very, very controversial group. And, you know, you were sort of maybe surprised or maybe not by their support. Now, detractors, I think, of COVE and of other sort of, you know, the parents that are speaking out, you know, from the Muslim community, the Orthodox community, detractors will point to M4L and say, like, you guys are on the side of white supremacists or you guys are, you know, this is sort of tainting your your your mission or what you're calling to. How do you respond to these this sort of critique? Well, I think, well, M4L has been labeled as a hate group by Southern poverty law, right? So they've so so they they've been labeled as such. I, you know, I've looked up their organization, done some research myself, and I haven't seen anything really egregious to really that that would seem to warrant that that label as a hate group. That being said, we've you know, like I said, we've been working more with the people of faith than the than the secular actors, but they've they've been supporting us. Being, you know, the the the the liberal media tried to sort of, you know, associate us with M4L and that that has been their tactic, I think, with all the other non Muslim sort of activism on this issue that has happened across the country. So as soon as anybody steps up to to say, we don't want these books in schools, they get they get accused of of being right wing bigots and also opposing having books about black history in schools and so forth. So they tried that tactic with us. They tried to say that you guys are out at rallies and moms for liberties at the same rally.
Therefore, you must be either manipulated by moms for liberty, or you must align with their entire ideological platform. And so those accusations were there, but I think that because we're mostly brown and black people, most of the Muslim community and the Ethiopian Orthodox community was people of of of color. So that that really didn't it just didn't work. It didn't stick. They kept repeating it. I was actually surprised at how many how far they went to keep. They really tried that tactic. It seemed to be like their their their go to tactic and their main tactic for shutting down any kind of movement such as ours. But they kept at it. I mean, they they they they wanted to tell these African people out there that they're that they're white supremacists. It's just sort of such a ridiculous comment to to to make, and that's what we we responded by saying that's ridiculous. Yeah, I think in general, the narrative has been using these groups using more right wing conservative groups, more far out their groups in terms of their political ideologies to say that these groups are controlling the Muslims, the Muslims don't have agency, that we don't have our own free will, that we don't have solid stances on any of these groups. Solid stances on anything. I think this is in the narrative with Muslims in America. That's what they always try to get us to do. They try to say the Muslims are being controlled by this or that. The Muslim narrative is always framed by the Muslims being used in some way or another. So I think it's strange for people to see Muslims standing up for their values and actually saying this is what I believe in. This is what we want to fight for. And whether or not people actually believe that we are being controlled by other groups or being used by other groups or not. I feel like that's the narrative they're using because people are used to hearing that. People are used to hearing that Muslims are being used by this or that for this agenda or that agenda.
They're not used to Muslims being in the political sphere, being very active and very clear about what our religion says on something. Yeah, that's well said. I think the false consciousness sort of tactic has always gone hand in hand with that thing we talked about earlier, where, you know, trying to create the situation where there's a good Muslim and a bad Muslim. You know, so the bad Muslims, you know, if we're being charitable, they have false consciousness. They don't understand their interests. They're being played. They're being manipulated and used. And the good Muslims are the ones who get, you know, that we're just a minority. We have to play the minority game with everybody else. And, you know, quid pro quo, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. So, you know, another thing that this brings up is how slippery these terms are. You know, to call someone a hate group, upon what metric and criteria are organizations being labeled as hate groups or extremist groups? This seems to be, you know, just a new McCarthyism that sort of we all already experienced after 9-11 when, you know, everybody with a beard and a hijab was a potential terrorist. So now by what authority does, you know, certain organizations such as the Southern Poverty Law Center get to hurl such accusations at certain groups? And, you know, it really, I think, I think that that'll be significant going forward because there's another sort of there's another iteration of, again, putting up these. You're creating a situation where a good Muslim, bad Muslim, good group, bad group. And upon what criteria are we even being explicit about what criteria we're using? Or is this just really sort of a dog whistle or virtue signaling or some sort of ideological language that really hides an agenda that's sort of lurking beneath the surface? Very, very interesting, the level of chess that is being played out.
To your point, Shaikh, I think that I think that it reflects their their deep seated fear that Muslims might actually start working with with Christians. I think that's I think that's really their concern is is is they do see that as a potentially powerful political bloc and one that makes sense. One that that that you have actual shared values, unlike the sort of alliance or deal we made with the left, which which the only thing we had in common with with them was the fact of our marginality. But there was nothing else. It was the accidental quality that we shared with them, but nothing related to our beliefs. So I think that's that's their that's that shows you what their main concern is, is that Muslims will start to work with religious religious Christians. And I do think there's a there's a lot of room for that. And I think there's a lot of religious, pious Christians and Jews that are not that are not far right wing and are not far left wing. They're centrist. They're like us. They they want good things for their country and for their family. And they and they follow a traditional religion. One of the things that I reflect on somebody who my first training is in political science, you know, people have, I think, a mischaracterization when they think about majority and minority politics. Right. Majorities and minorities are our social constructs. Right. Even the idea of whiteness. Right. Like that there are these groups and that somehow they make up a majority, even though they come from Germany and France. And, you know, it's something that is not essential and it can shift. Right. And so to consider Muslims, even as a minority, you know, there's some there's something of a doomsdayish, I think, sort of attitude that some Muslims have. We're only ever going to be a minority. We can't hope for anything more than that.
And so we just kind of have to just, you know, bite the bullet and make the compromises, whatever we have to do just to survive without realizing that, you know, if you rearrange sort of the pawns on the table, we could be part of a majority, a moral majority, you know, forgive the, you know, the 80s language. But but, you know, but something of if there are a substantial amount of people, if not a majority, maybe a plurality, right, of people in the United States that, you know, they care about family values. They care about sort of, you know, the sanctity of the family. They care about virtue. They care about faith. They care about these sorts of things. It only takes a few moves in order to sort of form a coalition where that becomes something that's extremely powerful. It's not sort of so deterministic as people think that we're just consigned to be this sort of bit player. We're only going to be point one percent or one percent of the population will never be able to achieve anything. We could actually be a significant sort of voice and contributor to something, of course, that is greater than ourselves and something that will rely on other allies and coalition members. But I think that I would I caution I try to caution Muslims at every turn to sort of and the potential out there to work together and to contribute together with other sort of actors and groups. And that's something that I think that you I mean, you know, is really, really inspiring when it comes to that particular that particular front. Alhamdulillah, I mean, the message has been very people. People love it. I mean, as soon as as soon as we start saying, hey, let's let's work together on real issues. We have all this interfaith talks and so forth. And we talk about our different theological beliefs. But when you when you go and you actually go to other people of faith and you say, let's we have this issue of concern. Let's let's let's work together and let's let's let's do this all over the country. People get very excited about that. Actually, now, one thing that you mentioned was the media coverage. And I do want to touch on this before we move next to maybe what's coming up in the future.
Did you reach out? You know, you were covered. Well, I think Fox News picked up the story and some sort of what would be understood as right wing media outlets picked up not only picked up the story, but in a sympathetic light, in a sympathetic way that actually surprised a lot of people. And this is kind of what gave rise to the whole, oh, they're just using you sort of thing. Was there any effort to reach out to the left media and what was their response? Yeah, we did reach out, actually, for each of the rallies, we reached out to a lot of different media organizations and oftentimes the ones who were interested in covering them were more right wing. So, yeah, on that front, we did try to reach out to media organizations all across the spectrum. I think individually, too, for interviews, we tried to reach out. We were getting interview requests from more right wing organizations, but the left wing organizations kind of weren't as interested. So we tried to reach out to them as well to say, hey, like we don't see ourselves as partisan. We want to, you know, engage with all ends of the spectrum. And there are a lot fewer left wing interviewer who sat down with one of the parents and Karim and I to kind of go over some of the story, too. But other than that, I feel like there are very few more left wing organizations. There was a Washington Post article. Go ahead. There was a Washington Post. There was, to Samira's point, there was I could think of two liberal media outlets actually that gave us coverage. One was was the Washington Post and the other was this Vox News, I guess, affiliate with NPR. But, you know, when they when they do their coverage, you know, they'll always try to frame it, how to put this, you know, they'll bring on that the queer Muslim. Right. And they'll say these Muslims are saying this, but don't forget, you know, they're just we're the community is not a monolith. They love to use that phrase. The community is not a monolith. And so they bring on other people to sort of paint a different picture.
Because they know more about Islam than we do, of course. Right. So they should be there informing everybody as to what the true Islam is. Mashallah. So do you think this is a bit disingenuous? Right. Because you have the people on the left, you know, in one breath are saying that we're running to the right. We're making allies with the right. We're being used by the right. And yet you're demonstrating actually, no, you've reached out to the left and you're trying to actually hold the middle. Right. And hold the center and trying to whatever. But they're not picking up the phone or they're putting the phone back. We have the old phones, you know, you receive the thing and you just let it just, you know, beep. So is that sort of disingenuous on their part then? Like because, you know, this isn't something it's not like you're just running into the open arms of the right. You're actually trying to appeal to both and bring both along and willing to have serious and deep conversations with both sides. But really, it's just that one side is listening and the other side isn't. Yeah, that's essentially the case, you know, like Samira said, we tried to reach out to the to the other side and then to to just to accuse us of, you know, pandering to the right, because they're the ones who invite us to talk. That's, you know, that's very, that's unfair. We would talk to anybody really to to to to to get our message across and try to convince people of our point of view. When I went on to Fox News, I, I was surprised that that that even appearing on a show was a political act, and I thought that you go and you talk to people, they may disagree with you, they may hate you even, but you can still talk to them, they're still going to hear what you want to say and that's, that's a, that's a powerful position to be in. So I, I really reject any kind of idea that talking to people is is in itself a description of your political beliefs. Yeah, no, and I find it ironic.
It almost sort of reminds me of some sort of maybe extremist elements in our own midst that would sort of paint you by association or blame you by association. You know, you, you share the stage with so and so, they're an innovator and so therefore you are too, or, you know, you, you know, said salam to some sort of individual and he's part of this group and he's on this and this and that, and that's some somehow is some sort of blank check of approval for everything that they do say and believe, which is ludicrous. And I think the average reasonable person knows is ludicrous, but we see a certain type of similar tribalism going on on the political right now. It's like, oh, my God, you went on Fox News. You know, you've committed some sort of kufr against, you know, the, the liberal beliefs or at least the sensibilities. And all we're trying to say is that, you know, there is nuance and there is dawah and we are trying to invite and call to other people and not just be an echo chamber, not just be a silo. And some people interpret that as, you know, as being manipulated or they interpret it in one particular way. That's not actually what's going on. I think I want to point out also like after 9-11, Muslims got so much media coverage regardless of it was bad. And that was the point in time where a lot of Muslims, a lot of people convert to Islam because of the media coverage period, whether or not it was good or bad. So I think even going on these more right-wing shows, maybe someone who's never seen a Muslim talk actually in person or talk eloquently about anything, they're seeing it now on their Fox News channel or whatever, and they're finally, like they're finally getting an opportunity to see a Muslim speak. And maybe that itself might be an opportunity for dawah for people to say, you know what, this Kareem guy on Fox, he was pretty eloquent. I might look up what he says or what Islam says about this or that. Yeah, no, and I'm proof of that, right? I'm one of those post 9-11 converts. So before, before we move on Samira, I wanted to just bring up, speaking of media coverage,
you gave a speech at one of the board of education meetings and it blew up, it went viral. And maybe we can, I'm not sure if we can link to that below when we release this, but could you give us just sort of a summary of what was said or what was going through your mind, sort of inspiring the speech? And what do you think it said that it got so popular and it touched so many people? Alhamdulillah. Honestly, I'm not sure what exactly was said. Honestly, it's all from Allah, alhamdulillah. But I think what maybe resonated with some people is what I tried to write and tried to express were the things that were not really picked up by, picked up like overtly by either side or anyone who was speaking, especially things that I felt the school board should know but they just weren't getting from being more subtle in talking about different things that a lot of the Muslims and all the parents spoke about at the previous school board meetings and other testimonies. So I think I kind of strayed away from the actual content. I didn't talk much about the books themselves. I didn't talk much about the school system itself. I talked in more broad terms. I feel like maybe that too helped people relate all over the world and whatever situations that they're going through of what's happening in terms of indoctrinating children or whether children are learning in schools and where we should draw the line of what is okay to teach in schools and what is not. So I think what kind of spoke to a lot of people is the fact that I was very broad and very, I don't know, I tried to highlight things that I felt like were subtle and that needed more talking time on. And one of those main messages I found very strikingly similar to one of the main messages of the Navigating Differences document, which was that it's not intolerance and it's not bigotry to have our values
about gender and sexuality, right? And this is, I think, part of why in Ilana's best, you know, that it struck such a chord with people because so many people who are conscientious people, who are people who, you know, they have jobs and they love their spouses and they love their kids and they go to work every day, and they're being told that simply because they believe in traditional morality and traditional gender and traditional sexuality, that they're somehow bigoted and intolerant. And you kind of put your foot down in that clip and you said that is completely not true. And so at least for me and as a parent, you know, myself like this, that's something that extremely resonated with me. And I think a lot of people did. So may Allah reward you for the courageous stance and for your words. Pivoting now, okay, so let's look forward to the future. School year's coming up in not too long. What's next? What's the strategy, especially for Cove, especially for the upcoming school year? We wanna talk, where does opt-out sit, first of all? Is it something that it looks like we can get back? How meaningful is it even to get opt-out back when the cynical way that this sort of ideology was inserted in the curriculum? It's not just in a sex ed class, but yet it pervades all sort of subjects. Talk about where we go from here. Well, there's a lawsuit against the Montgomery County Public Schools that was filed by Beckett Legal Fund, which is one of the three top kind of law firms dealing with religious rights. And they've filed a lawsuit on behalf of a Muslim parent and two Christian families. And they've filed for an, I guess, called temporary injunction. So where they would, you know, while the case is proceeding that for that time, they would restore the opt-out option during that time. So that oral arguments for that,
for the injunction are gonna happen on August 9th. So very soon, and the judge may even rule on that before the end of, before the school year starts. So we may have, depending on how the judge rules, we may or may not have the opt-out at least for the next year. Then after that, you know, the court case would proceed. But we're also looking to get involved in the Board of Education elections in 2024. We plan on supporting a slate of candidates. There's three seats that are up for the Board of Election in Montgomery County. And I wanna mention- How many people are on the board? There's seven. Okay, so almost a majority, yeah. Almost a majority, yeah. There's one seat in particular that we really wanna go after and that there's a woman named Lynn Harris. She's on the board and she famously said that, you know, we had some teenagers and some young people give testimony at these meetings. And so she had the audacity to say that these kids are just repeating their parents' dogma. Their parents are feeding them dogma. So that is really, it was insulting to us and to all the immigrant communities that they wanna pass on their, they want to pass on that dogma to their kids. So we're gonna get involved with those elections and see how it goes. We think that there's a lot of support and we're also trying to do this new thing where we're working with Catholics and Ethiopian Orthodox and people like that and to see whether, are there still enough religious people around to do something? That's very exciting. Are there any other sort of like process points? I guess I have two questions. One of them is how much, give us a sense of maybe how much power or influence a local school board member has over the curriculum versus let's say the state. We've seen recently, such as in Chino, California, the local school board do some really, really exciting
and impressive and courageous things only to have the state superintendent sort of try to muscle his way in there and try to blackmail them into walking those things back. So how much power does the local school board have to give other people a sense of urgency? How urgent is it to get involved in school board politics wherever you are? Well, I'll leave that question then I have other questions. So go ahead. Well, yeah, they decide everything. The school boards decide everything. In Maryland, because it's a blue state, the state comes up with this thing called the educational framework and then that is adopted by the counties. But Montgomery County will definitely adopt it and take it and run with it. So basically the power is in the board of education and without really controlling that, I mean, you were asking about the opt-out, it's such a small ask, it's really nothing. I mean, really this book should not be taught to anybody. Right. And not just Muslims, shouldn't be taught to anybody. Nobody, no kids should be circling that. It might be illegal, actually. It might be illegal. It might be illegal. And from a Muslim standpoint, we don't believe that that should be taught to anybody because we believe it's wrong. It's immoral even to have books about any sort of sexual deviancy. We would argue that that's not appropriate for any human being. But yeah, so the board of education controls that. And so it is essential ultimately to be on that board to be able to oversee the administrative states where so much gets decided. I mean, there's no voting going on, but there's policies and policies and policies that are issued every day by the administrative states. So tremendous amount of power. Excellent. Okay, so other than opt-out, other than sort of the board of education,
what are some other things that people might want to look at or pay attention to that you see in your community or other communities, such as process points regarding parental rights, parental supervision, parental oversight of curriculum, even just being informed? A lot of stuff, especially again, recently in California, the fight has been on what parents know about what their kids are being taught or what pronouns are being used for their children while they're sending their kids away to school. What sort of things on that front maybe are on your radar or on the docket to look at? Samira, do you wanna take this one? I mean, I'm not quite sure exactly. Other things, one thing I will say is kind of like you mentioned, the idea that your kids at some schools, your kids are allowed to quote, unquote, socially transition without the school having to inform parents. So at least that, for me, that's something that's scary because it's now not only reading kids books that parents may or may not know what's in them, but your child is living an entirely different life at school. And as a parent, you're not allowed to know what that is. So I think that's something that parents should be very, very careful of, being very, very communicative with your kids, being, honestly, I think that's very important too, is your kids are with your teachers all the time. You don't get to see how your kids' lives are at school. So be very open with them, talk to them, you know, just keep that positive connection with your kids. So I think the moment that we're at a very, very difficult time now where schools are trying to pry your kids away from you no matter what. So I think it's very, very important for parents to keep that bond with your kids, be very, very loving to them, talk to them, be there for them, be, I guess, just be very, very, yeah, be good parents, I guess. I just wanna summarize that just to, again, just so the viewer is completely clear
about how cynical all this is, that schools will actually encourage your elementary-aged child to question their sexuality and to question their gender, and then they will hide the fact from you that they have now, at their prompting, gone by another pronoun or chosen to change their gender, and they will try to cover it up, and for years, essentially, all behind your back. So these are the things that create urgency and that, I think, create the imperative for all parents and all community members to get in the game, and I think that's sort of the last thrust that I want to end on today for today's conversation is, and you already started giving advice, let's advise people. You both have gone through it. You're in the trenches. You see all this stuff playing out, both at the local and national level. What advice do you have for parents? Samira, you just touched on that a little bit. What advice do you have for youth and what do you have to advise sort of Muslim political initiatives going forward? Well, I'll start with the last one. I think that Muslims need to learn to be civic, you know, civic engagement. I think at this point, I mean, you know, the imams should say that it's a wajib to vote. I mean, if we cannot secure, if we cannot secure the next generation, this is an existential crisis. I really do think it rises to that level. If Muslims do not participate in local politics, we may lose a generation. And these kids, you know, it's not so much, it's not only the material itself that is a problem. It is the fact that material conflicts with their religious teachings. So when they come home, in their mind, they're going to say, why does my religion not accept these people? And these people are, and there's so much sympathy and compassion that is being sort of manipulated and used to frame that. So the child is going to say,
my religion, my Lord, is not merciful. And that's very serious because that lays the seed of weakening of their faith. So my advice to parents is to pay attention to this. It's not a small issue. Don't blow it off and say, well, I'll just teach him, you know, proper sexual ethics when he comes home. It's not going to work that way. They're going to have some very deep rooted issues in terms of how they relate to the religion itself. It's just simple math, right? I mean, it's like they spend how many hours a day or how many hours a week at school and they're being indoctrinated and then they only get you in a weekend program, maybe, right? Simple math says that you're going to lose. And as the Imam in the room, I have to back you up and say that people who have criticisms of voting, I think I can understand some of them, but they only really apply to the national level. They have nothing to do. We're talking about school boards. We're talking about local, you know, city councils. We're talking about the mayor, right? These are not people that are dropping bombs on Muslims abroad. These are not people that you consign sovereignty over to in any sort of meaningful way. I don't buy that argument in the first place, but even for the sake of argument, those are things that only even enter into the conversation at the national level, which is its own beast. And we'll tackle that later, but at least for the purpose of our discussion today, you don't have an excuse. I cannot see an excuse to not get involved in local politics, and especially with the education system, especially with the boards of education, the school boards. I do a hundred percent agree that it is an existential threat. We're talking about the indoctrination. It's nothing short of indoctrination of our children. And there's a phrase, you know, you guys probably aware in Arabic, la yutimmu wajibun ila bihi fawajib. If you have something which is obligatory, right? It's like something that, and establishing Islam, Allah Subh'anaHu Wa Ta-A'la says, ya ayyuhal lazeena aamanu, quwwu anfusukum wa ahlikum naran. Right? Protect yourselves and your family from the fire. It's a command. It's an absolute, like non-negotiable command.
Anything that becomes necessary to fulfill that command, by extension, becomes necessary. And if we're talking about, you know, putting people on the school board to help shape education, just to give your child a fighting chance at remaining a normal, committed Muslim in their however many years that they're going to spend in the public school system, then that becomes an obligation as well. That's only for, yeah. Any other comments, Samira? Yeah, and on that point, and kind of expanding on what Kareem said too, I guess my advice to parents too would be, love your deen like you want your kids to love the deen. Because the moment that we let go of our love for Islam, the moment it is so easy for those schools to sow those seeds of doubt in your children. And not even just schools, but society at large, social media, everyone. Everyone is out to tell people that Islam is wrong. Everyone's out to tell people that your religion isn't compassionate, that your religion isn't spiritual enough, that you don't have a true connection to God. But if we just demonstrate to our kids and people in our communities and just everyone, how much we love our deen, how much we love our Lord, then I think it'll really resonate. People follow actions more than they follow words. So I think embodying the sunnah and really teaching your kids how, not just teaching them elements of Islam, but teaching them how to love those elements of Islam because we are commanded to. So I think that's really, really important to be very, very vigilant ourselves in how we interact with the deen. I think that's very important. And I think also a message to the youth specifically is to make good friends. I think that's a very simple advice, but I think it's very, very effective when you surround yourself with people who will speak up on things that transgress Allah's bounds,
then you're more likely to speak up on those things too. So I think that's very important, especially for college age, high school age kids, really surrounding yourself with good people and cultivating that courage, cultivating that courage to say that, yeah, these people in society don't agree with this, but this is what Allah tells me and I believe in it. And I think it's important to speak about it. Any other comments as far as advice? That's probably, that's wonderful. Okay, last thought, how can people support COV, Coalition of Virtue? We have a national audience right here, even an international audience. People wanna support what you're doing. How can they? We have a donation page on the website. There's donation. You can go to coalitionofvirtue.org. There's a, you can sign up for the newsletter. We're a young organization. So, you know, things have happened so quickly and Alhamdulillah, things have progressed. And I think in a positive direction in the past few months, as you mentioned earlier, about how the pendulum does seem to be, seem like it's swinging the other way somewhat, inshallah, remains that way, continues. But so our activities are still, we're still planning our activities. And so at this point, we don't have like national chapters or anything like that. But I think in the future, inshallah, we would like to do that so that we can sort of, inshallah, I mean, the idea is to, we wanna replicate a kind of model of working with people of faith towards virtue. And inshallah, that model seems to be very successful and seems to be very principled. And so inshallah, we hope to, you know, sort of have many of these chapters across the country. But for now, I would just say, support us. If you can support us financially, it would be great. And if you, you know, sign up for the newsletter
just to stay updated and then, you know, just keep your hearts with us and pray for us. No, that's fine. And I'll make the offer for the community as well. I would say also sharing information that you've heard about us, sharing like stuff like this podcast, sharing the message that we're trying to get out there at working with other people on these issues. Mashallah. Well, may Allah continue to support and guide you both and everything that you're doing and to keep us all sincere and to accept from us. And you have my support and I'm very, very grateful that we had this conversation today. Thank you so much. Thank you. Fikim Barak Allah. Subhanak Allahumma Wa Bihamdika Sharukan La Ilaha Ila Anta Astaghfirullah Wa Atubu Ilayk Assalamualaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh Wa Alaikum Assalam
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