Sincerely, Yours
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Sincerely, Jamaal Diwan
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Transcript
This transcript was auto-generated using AI and may contain misspellings. for another episode of Sincerely Yours. I'm your host Ibrahim Hindi along with my co-host Sheikh Abdullah Oduru. Sheikh Abdullah, how are you doing? Alhamdulillah, how are you sir? Alhamdulillah, you're looking sharp. I like that belt, man. Alhamdulillah, I appreciate it. How's everything going? Alhamdulillah, everything's good. Productive day, Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah, Alhamdulillah. As always everyone, we're here live and we want to hear your questions. We want to get your feedback inshallah. So throughout today's engagement, you know, drop some questions in the chat. And you know, there's a time inshallah where we will give your questions inshallah to our guest. Where we can learn inshallah from their wisdom and from their advice biidhnillah. And as always, give us your salam. We love to hear salam from each and every one of you. Salamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. For brother Kenneth from Albuquerque, New Mexico, mashallah. JazakAllah khair for joining us. Let us know where you're coming to us from. Give us your salam. Let us know where in the world you're at. We love hearing from people all around the world, Alhamdulillah, and being connected to all of you. We're one ummah and having that ability to connect with each other through sincerely yours is something that we really look forward to and really love. Wa alaykum salam to Hedayatou from New Jersey and brother Ahmed, salamu alaykum from San Francisco. He's speaking French, mashallah. InshaAllah. Salamu alaykum Umma Mohsen from Toronto and good evening to Nicole. I'm not sure from where. Salamu alaykum, connecting with all of you. Like we said throughout this whole episode, if you have questions, put them in the chat inshaAllah.
Hopefully thoughtful questions for our guests that we can give them and gain inshaAllah from their advice and from their knowledge biidhnillah. So our guest for today, inshaAllah, we have Sheikh Jamal Dewan who was born and raised in Southern California to parents from Canada and Pakistan. He graduated after spending seven years in studying Sharia in Al-Azhar. And he also completed two years of his graduate work in Islamic studies from the American University in Cairo. Upon his return, he served as the religious teacher and instructor in Southern California and later became the resident scholar at the Islamic Center of Irvine. He has also helped start the first IOK chaplaincy program, which began at UCLA and at USC and eventually grew to cover seven college campuses in Southern California. He himself served student bodies at UCLA, USC and UCI. In 2017, he and his wife, Sheikha Muslima Permo, also co-founded the Majlis, an initiative in Southern California rooted in traditional religious learning, contextualized for the particular cultural landscape and challenges of America while developing an intentional community founded on the ethics of love and service. He continues to serve the community through his work at the Majlis, teaching multiple classes a week and supporting its various programs. He also serves as the Islamic studies teacher at New Horizon Irvine Islamic School. He's a father of two and resides with his family in Southern California. Join me, inshallah, in welcoming Sheikh Jamal. Assalamu alaikum, Sheikh. Wa alaikum salam wa rahmatullah. How are you doing, Sheikh? Alhamdulillah. Fee naama. We're very blessed. Alhamdulillah. How are you all? Alhamdulillah. We're blessed to have you with us. Alhamdulillah.
So, Sheikh, you know, we were talking backstage a little bit. I was happy to know that you have a connection to Canada. Yeah, I mean, I guess it goes back how old the people you ask are, you know, some Newfoundlanders. That's true. Canadians know some Newfoundlanders dispute their connection to Canada. But yeah. Absolutely true. So how did a kid with roots in Newfoundland end up in Southern California? It's Los Angeles is the great joiner. It's a great uniter, the great uniter of people. So both my parents, you know, my mom came from Newfoundland. She, you know, she always says she had two choices. Either she could be a nurse or she could be a flight attendant. So she chose a nurse and she ended up in California, in Los Angeles for work. And my father came from Pakistan and also came to Los Angeles for school and then work or technically school and work at the same time. You know, so that's how they met there and they stayed there. We grew up there and everything else. Inshallah. Did you were you raised then like Muslim or what was your house like growing up? Yeah. So, you know, my parents, my dad is from Pakistan. He comes from a Muslim background. My mom comes from, I guess you can say, a Christian background. But they kind of decided to not raise us with religion. So they they raised us with Hamdallah, like good kind of traditional values in some ways, you can say, you know, like be good to people, take care of yourself, take care of your family, love people, work hard, do things properly, so on and so forth. And so Hamdallah, they raised us well and they gave us everything they could, but they didn't raise us with Islam. So later on, I became Muslim and my sister to this day is not Muslim.
My mother, so on and so forth. Allah preserve them and guide them. So, Subhanallah, you were raised as a young man. I mean, what was a typical so where Friday or and Sunday, any special days for you? No, no, we didn't do any religion, really. There was maybe like one or two times and my dad wanted me to go to Eid prayer with him or something like that. And I basically said no. I'm like a kid growing up and grew up in we call it the South Bay. But in California, there's at least three South Bays. But this is the South Bay of Los Angeles. So, you know, just south of the airport, Redondo Beach, Torrance area. And, you know, so like that just wasn't something I was doing. And I didn't know. So he asked me a couple of times and I would just tell him, no, I don't really see why I should do that. Yeah. And, you know, maybe we disagreed a little bit at the time on it. But, you know, it was all right. He kind of respected that, too, because he understood that they didn't raise us with that. So how is he going to put it on me then? So you grew up like in public school, I'm assuming public school or private school or? Yeah, public schools, you know, actually, I guess that's fair. Not everyone goes to public school, but yeah, I grew up in public schools. I'm like relatively nice area, I would say, like middle, upper class. Now it's even nicer than it was then, you know, with different just changes in property value and stuff like that. But, you know, usual play basketball, went to the beach, hung out, listen to rap, you know, stuff that Southern California kids do. Oh, man, you listen to rap back then. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to say you had the greats, but you had the well-known 90s. The 90s. Oh, man, that's the urban.
Southern California. Oh, man. May it all count for us and not against us. Well, before my Islam, then all of it, all of it turned. Wow. Wow. Did you because, you know, before I was Muslim as well, it was like I remember I used to be a sack or a Kroger. And my name was Abdul before I became Muslim. Right. So I remember those two particular occasions where he would say, so I'm like. I didn't know what they were talking about. I'm like 13 years old. Did you ever have an encounter where someone where your name is being called? I don't know if your name was Jamal before you became Muslim. I was. Yeah. Oh, OK. So did you ever have like a you know, they're calling your name on the roll call and the teacher says, Jamal, do you want. Oh, so I want to go Jamal. Or do you ever meet like when you're playing basketball? They don't want to come to you and say, I'm like, did you know what that meant or not? Did you ever one of those encounters? That's a good question. I mean, so there were a couple of other kids that I grew up with that were kind of similar to me in the sense that either they had one parent that had a Muslim background or maybe they had a full Muslim background, but they just didn't really have any connection to it. So we used to kind of joke here and there, like, you know, Muslim type things. But we weren't Muslim. You know what I mean? Like we thought about it as like an ethnicity more than a which, of course, doesn't make any sense. But in retrospect, that's what that's what we're doing as kids. The thing that I used to get probably I don't remember anyone ever kind of coming to me like someone unless they knew my dad was Muslim and like maybe as a relative or something like that. Right. But regular everyday life. The only thing that I would get sometimes, to be honest, is people would ask me if I was half black or something like that. Because they were like, Jamal, why is your name Jamal? You know, and I was always playing basketball like basketball was my world. So like, so are you like one of your parents black or something like that? And then like, no.
So I think a lot of I don't know if a lot of people actually, but for me, I kind of have cousins who were raised in your situation and a lot of them didn't, you know, become Muslim or even identify as Muslim in any way afterwards. I think maybe there's a good amount of people who also have relatives in that situation. So maybe you could shed light. How did you end up coming to Islam if it was never really something your parents really taught you or, you know, your family is even really interested in? Yeah. So I'm going to be honest for a second. I think that one of the things that happens sometimes is that when converts are asked this question all the time, whatever word we're going to use converts, reverts, people will come to Islam later, whatever. People will come to Islam later, get out of the arguments on words. When they're asked this question over and over again, I think that sometimes. It's tiresome. No, not tiresome. I think sometimes our stories kind of develop. They become more than they were, you know. So I just want to interject because one thing about it is a little bit different than being a convert who like didn't know anything about Islam becomes Muslim. In my case I didn't know anything. Yeah. Like I knew what I would know from like a Biggie Smalls song, you know, there's Ramadan, there's Mecca, you face it when you pray. Like whatever I knew from hip hop, that's what I knew about Islam. Because my father too, like he came here really early. He came in 66. So he didn't really have any family here. He didn't have connection to anyone, you know. But I understand what you're saying. It's a little bit different. Because it's kind of like they'll be like, oh, yeah, I know my relatives are kind of Muslim. And so they have like this kind of insight to it. And if they don't like the relatives, then they're kind of like, yeah, I know that Islam thing. It's probably not for me. Right. I mean, I barely met them growing up, you know, like a few days here and there.
Literally, probably not more than a week or two in my whole childhood that I see relatives from my Muslim background, you know, because they were in Pakistan. They didn't come. And that was back when like it's harder to call and stuff like that. So my dad wasn't calling all the time and things. It sounds so funny because we're not that old, but it was different. But anyways, to your forget exactly what your what was the question exactly? How you came to Islam. Yeah. So I think, you know, I became I kind of became Muslim in early 2003. So I started my university basically a week or two after 9-11. And so Muslims are kind of like part of the whole conversation at that point. I had moved out. I grew up in, again, the L.A. area. I moved. I went to UC San Diego. So I moved to San Diego and I started college and I was you know, Muslims are kind of in the news and things. We were worried about my dad's safety. That was the extent of it. But the big thing that I think that happened was that. My first year of college didn't go so well, like I had done really well in life up to that point for the most part, some mistakes here and there, of course, but I had done well. But my first year of college didn't go well. But one of the things that was good was I had a roommate that was into underground hip hop. And he would keep telling me, like, you know, you should check this out, check this out. And so finally he kind of got me into that scene. And Malcolm was a big figure in that scene. Malcolm X. And so I read the autobiography of Malcolm X. And basically after that, I became Muslim, essentially after hip hop and Malcolm X. And then I met some students on campus. One or two I had known from basketball and then some other ones I met through some events. And, you know, I decided to become a Muslim, basically. I'm not sure that I really knew the full extent of what I was getting myself into.
But I'm kind of like if I if I do something, I like to do it. So having committed to it, I started studying a lot and reading a lot and stuff like that. And of course, I came to know more over time. So when you said you didn't know the full extent, was it from like a social perspective, like the Muslim community or from a theoretical perspective, like, oh, I didn't know that it was real, like monotheism at this this caliber or I didn't know who Muhammad was. So the last time I really know, I had a basic conception on that. Like, OK, at the same time, part of my G.E. in college was this class that went through the history of the world. So we went through all the religions and stuff like we had done a lot of these things. So I knew like, OK, there's monotheism. I know there's a prophet. I know the Koran. I've been reading the Koran, but I didn't know a lot of the details like relationship stuff like, you know, really. I've never been part of a community. I've never been. I've never really known anyone that really had a connection to history or culture or anything. I mean, Southern California is very new in many ways. It's not even similar to the East Coast. The East Coast is different than the West Coast in that way, especially Southern California. But I mean, in that sense, like I didn't know a lot of the rules. I didn't if someone asked me, I remember people asking me, like, OK, so why did you become a Muslim? And I could kind of answer, but not really. You know what I mean? I couldn't give like a really thorough answer. I could say that I felt that it was right and I felt that the Koran was true. And I felt that, you know, I felt that I could see why I should believe in God and that if I was going to believe in God, the Muslims had the best claim to being on the right track. That's what that was. The extent to where I was at. That's what time I learned more. I show up. I show up. So so that step was taken. So you're in college. You decide to embrace Islam.
I don't want to ask the question, but it's like it's the elephant in the room. It's OK. What was the event that took place where you said, you know what, I want to do this. And who did you tell? Yeah. So. So I had I had been reading the Koran, I think more out of rebellion. You know, like I was in I was in the hip hop and I'm like, for all intents and purposes, I grew up as a white kid. OK, like I was understood and dealt with as a white kid. And I'm listening to hip hop and I'm like into this underground scene of social justice and all these different things. And people are kind of upset with Muslims. So I'm like, I'm going to read the Koran. It was kind of like a rebellion almost. And so I was reading the Koran and I was listening to that. I was listening, you know, read the autobiography of Malcolm X. And then honestly, I was walking on campus. There was one brother I knew from basketball that I would see from time to time. And then I was walking on campus. I saw a flyer. You know, it's like Muslim American Week or something, you know, because MSA would hold different weeks where they have. So I saw the flyer. I went to the event and I started to meet some of these guys. And my first impression, they're really great people, Mashallah. My first impression was these guys are trying to hustle me because they were just so good. They were like, you know, they'd be like, how are you? What's going on? Can we help you with anything? Can we support like they really sincerely just wanted to help me with anything. And from my background, I'm like, they're trying to hustle me, you know. So it turned out not true. And I don't know if there was like there's I went to a Juma. I think I went to like maybe a couple of Jumas. And I remember being struck by the Adhan. I remember a khutbah on tazkiyat and nafs, you know, purification of the soul. And I remember being in my room, actually. I lived with guys that I actually grew up with. I was with them since second grade. So I was living with them and it was like a Friday night or something. And I was like, I think, you know, this seems right to me.
Then I found some website that tells you how to pray. And I literally like went to the closet and prayed. Wow. You weren't Muslim yet? I mean, I don't know. Like, you know, according to Ahkam Zahira, I'm not really Muslim yet. Right? Yeah. But I did that. And then what happened was by that point, I was already kind of hanging out with the Muslims anyways. But they didn't consider me a Muslim. But it was like I was already hanging out with them. And I think like the next week when I'm sitting with them, they're like, all right, we're going to go pray. Do you want to come pray? And I was just like, yeah. And then that was it. There was no shahadah. I didn't do shahadah or anything like that, actually. But you've done it since then. I'm going to be questions like, has he done it yet, brother? He's divorced from his wife. No, I'm alive. That's so real. You said that because it's important that, you know, the seasoned Muslim community realizes this because like the past Ramadan. Yeah. Like my sons, you know, they're teenagers. So, you know, their friends would come to the masjid. And while you're talking to their friends, there's been like twice, I remember two vivid moments. I was like, well, you're already Muslim. You know what I'm talking about? Like you've never formally pronounced it, but you believe you believe it. And that's why I tell people sometimes that these doubt, you know, when giving dower, just talking to people about Islam is like sometimes it's just asking them the question. You know what I mean? I mean, I was all in. Like once that night happened and then they were like, do you want to pray with us? I was always praying after that. I was always with them. It wasn't like it was beautiful. Those are beautiful, beautiful times. And I was very fortunate to be around really, really good people. I'm like our MSA had a really, really solid group.
We had a similar situation in our MSA where there was this brother. He had roommates and they were all Muslim. And he was just hanging out with the Muslims all the time, coming to the MSA events and all that. And every time people would ask him, are you Muslim? He's like, no, he just drag his feet. And at one point I just took him. I told him I need to meet with you. So we met. I sat down like I'm going to teach you how to pray. So I didn't tell him to take shahadah. You have to say you're Muslim. I'm just going to teach you everything about prayers. I taught him how to pray and I left him with that. And I started praying. And it was like almost like when you put him on the spot for an answer, it was almost more difficult than just like he's coming along anyways. We're just teaching him how to pray and teach him everything. So pray. Interesting thing was like I was the non-Muslims that I was hanging out with were like the hip hop people. We had started a hip hop club at the school and like, you know, like underground heads, like backpackers, you know. So they were like the most, you know, I remember walking on campus one day between periods and UCSD is a big school. Right. So there's like hundreds and hundreds of people walking around between periods. And this guy that I know is like calls out, calls out all these people. Right. He's like, hey, Jamal, I heard you became a Muslim. I was in that era that's still kind of like where people are with this thing. And I was like, yeah, man. And he's like, all right, that's cool. Because especially in the hip hop world, like people had a lot of respect for Islam more than probably now. But in that period, in that era, there was a lot of. No, it was cool. It was like we respect that. So, yeah, I don't know much. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, to kind of like, you know.
It's important that as you're mentioning this, just for the MSAs out there in the right, I'm just remembering, you know, the so-called the moment with without, you know, the way he became Muslim, being tied to the pillars of the masjid, you know, he was a potential enemy, not saying that you were, but he was a potential enemy. And just seeing the community, you know, never be a little that especially young teenagers that are out there with your friends and you just live in your life as a Muslim and you tell them you got to go pray. Don't feel awkward in doing that. You know what I'm saying? Do you think and you don't know how it affects that person? You may not see it, but they're thinking about it. They're going home and thinking about it. So 100 percent. Yeah, 100 percent. That's so real. What year is this? What era is this in the hip hop? You said the 90s, right? You were in college. When I was a kid, it was in the 90s, but in like when I became Muslim was 2003, 2003. OK, you know, like listening to I think with underground hip hop, you're kind of like more about the art form. So you're not just about whatever's on the radio or whatever is popular. You're kind of like connected also. There's like a Senate to it. You know, like there's a chain of narration like you're if you're in the 2000s, you're worried about who are the big figures in hip hop. And the underground scene in the 90s and the 80s and the 70s. So like a student of the art form almost. Right. Yeah. Don't ask me questions. It's been 20 years. I don't remember. Yeah, we got off. We could talk about this all day. But that's that's my that was my era, man, like the 90s. And yeah, yeah. So after after you accept Islam. Yeah. And you know, you're still I'm guessing like still into hip hop and all that. And at some point you start experiencing maybe some doubt of like, did I make this right decision? You know, should I go back on this? I'm sure you kind of feel torn between maybe that hip hop scene and studying Islam. And at some point you start feel like a tension between those two things. And I just you know, in general, your past life versus what's ahead of you for Islam.
So did you ever feel doubt? And how did you how did you deal with that? Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. How deep do you want it? How deep am I willing to go on this question on YouTube right now? So I'll say for sure, I've definitely felt doubt many times. I think so. I became Muslim in my. What year was that was my sophomore year, I guess it was. I don't know. Whatever. Basically, the point is, I within about a year. I was married. So like I said, I'm kind of like I've calmed down a lot over the years, but definitely in that time, it was like very if you're going to do something, you do it. And I'm telling you the truth. This is my I was very arrogant. OK, so in my arrogance, it was I was doing the whole Islam thing. I felt like the Muslims who around me weren't serious enough about it. And I knew that marriage is half of your faith. So I was like, that means the logical conclusion is try to get married. This was it was very black and white. You know, it was like people I want to take it seriously. People are taking it serious enough. I should get married because that's half your religion. So then so then I looked around and, you know, like an MSA and stuff. And I felt that the woman who became my wife was like the most serious person that I could find. So I talked to her family and I'm getting married. Getting married. So that happened like by 2004, beginning of 2004. I didn't know her ahead of time, anything like that. People always ask that question. She was I always say an MSA like every MSA has their reference, you know, so an RMSA. And our MSA, my wife was like the reference. So if there was anyone that questions, they would go to her. If they wanted to borrow books, she was running like an Islamic bookstore library in her trunk type thing. So we would borrow books from her trunk and stuff like that. So
so, you know, we got married and then like another year of college passed and then we left for Egypt. So I was like really fresh, actually, in many ways by the time we left for Egypt to study. And I think that that's where I probably had more of my doubts. Like in that initial first couple of years when I was in America, I didn't I was OK, like I was in my my little zone, my community, my experience, everything was fine. But there were times when I was in Egypt that were really tough. And I mean, I can recall Ramadan that was really hard, where I was really questioning. Like I remember standing in Salat and feeling like all of these people, all these people are believers. And who are you kidding? You don't believe you're not a real you're not a believer. You know, you're just standing here because you're standing here and that's what you're supposed to do, but you don't really feel it. Look at these people. They feel it like they're crying. They're into it, you know. And that was tough. You know, there were some years like that. I think there and that went on for a while. And I think that. Sometimes my emotional state, I mix with my spiritual state. And something I've been trying to work on over the last several years, you know, trying to understand that because I'm not feeling so good, it doesn't mean that I don't believe it just means that I'm not feeling so good. And I need to work on that. I need to give that time and I need to, you know, let that pass. And when it passes, I'm usually OK. You know, I'm doing it now. So that's I don't want to say too much without, you know, it's going to become like a lecture. So but that's, you know, a short answer to that. That's the short version of it. But definitely felt different doubts over the years. So you're more of the convert that like we see sometimes that goes like 110 percent and then you're kind of like trying to calm them down because like the prophet said, this religion, you know, it can overcome you.
You try to overcome it. Right. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I definitely went too hard on a number of things. You know, some of that is my arrogance. Some of that was the kind of flavor that I was exposed to in some in some places in that era, you know, some of the. Like there's some kind of like bad manners that I had with my family that took many years to repair, you know, so I mean, Hamdallah, my family is very beautiful, very forgiving, they're very loving. It wasn't like they were holding grudges and kicking me out or anything. Hamdallah, they're really wonderful. But I was it was me that was not good. Right. So it was me who became this arrogant, ugly thing. And, you know, took some time to work through that, took some knowledge to work through that, took some experience to work through that. Yes, it's kind of like it's we kind of we, you know, as Congress, sometimes we kind of go through our crushing the idols, you know, Ibrahim stage, you know, saying and it's kind of like an insulin spike, you know, it's like you're there. But then sometimes, you know, on that way down, man, sometimes they don't come back. You know what I mean? They get really shadid. And then you said, I had to know about, you know, the process. I mentioned it doesn't is this this this religion is easy and no one will become harsh, except that it will overpower them. Some of them, they don't come back, man. And, you know, when you were in that stage of of of trying to practice your. Did you come back in the summers, by the way? Yeah, we used to come back in the summer. Yeah. How was that? We went we went first for Arabic and then we came back and we didn't know what we were going to do. Kind of like, you know, worked whatever jobs I could find. And then we were able to go back. And when we went back, we'd come back in the summer. What element of Islam or the Islamic practice of you or other than you? I want to say brought you back from doubt, but was a was
an enlightening moment that kind of strengthened what you had in regards to your email. Was it something you studied or was it an individual, a scholar, a friend, your wife, was it was it what was it that made you that kept you kept you strong, kept you going? When I would have doubts. Yeah. So my conclusion over time is that my doubts are more related to mental health than theology. And so usually it would be more of a spiritual thing. So usually it would be more of like it just kind of needs to pass. And when it would pass, then I'd be OK for a little while. And then something would happen. I'll go back. You know, but of course, Hamdallah, like having my wife and the relationships that were connected that my in-laws, my in-laws are beautiful people. They've been really, really good to me over the years. Hamdallah, like I've been really blessed to know really good people in community and in family. And that's that's been really helpful, you know. But I think that like I remember a moment many years later, by the way, I'm not talking about like talking about after graduating, after serving as an imam and stuff like that. And I remember a conversation with someone who's been on before. I won't put him out there, but. I remember calling him and telling him, like, man, I'm feeling this way. And we had been together for some time, so he knew me well. And like, what should I do? Should I review some more books of Aqidah? Like, should I go back and look at the arguments for God again? Like, what should I do? You know, in my mind, like I'm a student, you know. So and I remember him telling me, like, no, I just think you're depressed. He just gave me some straight, you know, is like, I just think you're depressed and you need to, you know. It's not your theology, you know. And he's the one that really actually gave me that insight.
And Alhamdulillah, you know, we're working through it, trying to be better every day. You know, that's beautiful, man. I mean, it's beautiful to to to to to. It's a blessing from Allah to be even be able to acknowledge it, because you making that distinction, you mentioned it passingly, but you're elaborating on it. The emotional turbulence versus the spiritual. Are they we interweave together? When are they separate? You know, to be able to distinguish it and then having the humility to go and talk to somebody about it. But that's like that's another level, because when you realize it, it's like, who am I going to tell, you know, especially if you had a particular position where there may be expect expectations, right? You know, having the courage. Yeah, I take some of you listen to me. Allah bless you, man. And I wish you and it's important, like you mentioned with the convert, because a lot of times people try to say that the converts have baggage. Everyone has, quote unquote, baggage. Right. And just uncovering those those challenges, you know, subhanAllah, it takes you to grab the cover and to uncover it. You know what I'm saying? So, man, I mean, everyone is doing something because, you know, we've been on this. I've been serving the community now for at least 10 years, like after coming back. And you see all kinds of things. Everyone's struggling with different things. And we do. We all have different things we need to work through, convert and not convert. So, Alhamdulillah. But it's a blessing to be on this path and to try to, you know, just keep going. You know, just keep learning and keep growing and to be around good people. And I'm grateful for that. So, Sheikh, when you accepted Islam, how did your family react to that? It was funny, actually. You know, like I said, I'll just say it. I mean, when I so I went home and I told them I'm like, I'm a Muslim now. It's like a Tupac song, right? Like, I ain't mad at you. You're a Muslim now. That's actually one of my friends told me when I called him, I was like, I'm a Muslim. He's like, I am mad at you. Like, he literally recorded his song.
And I told my parents and my dad just looked at me. He's like, you've always been a Muslim. Like, you're my son. What are you talking about? Like, in his mind, I was always a Muslim. And my mom was just kind of like, it's not really the best time to do that, you know. And I had some like really, you know, extreme response. You know, something like, you know, I'm not the one who chose the time, you know what I mean? Like some sort of Allah who chooses what he wants. I love it. So that was awkward. Our parents are so patient with this man. That was awkward. She was just looking at me like, all right, man, you know. My mom is really, she's, she's a very, she's a very, she's a very, my mom is really, she's, over time I've really come to realize, like, I think she's, although she left home pretty early, she's a Newfoundlander. She's a very steady, patient, organized, like, she's very like, so she just looked at me, she's like, okay. She knows, she's always long game, you know. She's like, all right, I'm with you for the long game. You're my son, you know. If you're happy, we're happy. So, Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah. Alhamdulillah. So coming back from, from, from Egypt and, and, and when you finally come back and you, you get involved with the community, because, you know, your introduction was serves here, serves here, serve there, serve here. How did it start for you? Did it start at the masjid? Was there a position waiting for you? What happened when you got off the plane, Khudu Jihadi from Egypt? Yeah. So SubhanAllah. I mean, I think that in many ways, this is a little bit funny to say, but in many ways, our timing was very fortunate. So we were kind of like the beginning of a wave of students to go study.
So what that meant was there was kind of like a growing expectation and desire for people to serve in the community who had gone to study, but we were kind of on the front end of it. So when we came back, there was still a lot of job opportunities and stuff like that. And in the field, which was really nice. But basically, I mean, we had been, both of us, my wife and I, of course, a lot of anything that I've been able to do has been because of my wife. Because she was, she and her family were known in the community, you know, from, she's been an activist in the community since she was in middle school. Like literally they ran their own youth group in middle school. They started one of the first high school MSAs when she was in high school. She served all different roles in college and so on. And then, so we were kind of like part of the community already. People knew us. When we would come back in the summers, we would give talks. We would get invited places. We would talk to people and stuff like that. So we kind of had a good amount of connections. We were on scholarship to study actually from the Islamic American University in Michigan. There were a couple of us that were on the scholarship at that time. And so it was affiliated, I don't know if it still is, it probably is with MAS, Muslim American Society. So the idea was that when we come back, we should try to serve in a place that would be kind of aligned in that way. So we tried to do that. But there was also an understanding of like insofar as that's possible. So we initially, when we came back, we worked for MAS, Greater LA. And did that for a little while. And then maybe like, I don't know how long it was, maybe a year, maybe a little bit less than a year. And I transitioned into a masjid position from there. Like the Islamic Center of Irvine was looking for any man. And some of the guys were on the board. They met with me and they told me this is our situation. What do you think? Do you want to come? And I was like, all right. We talked about some details and alhamdulillah it worked out.
And then after that, you're in the community now and you're dealing with everything in community. And yawmun lakwa yawmun alayk. Some days are for you, some days are against you. Some things go the way you want them to go, some things don't. But in the end, it's Allah's world. And Allah does whatever He pleases. So we're just trying to do our best with whatever it is. But I worked in the masjid for two and a half years. It's a large masjid. Like we're talking maybe 2,000 people at Jumaa. And there was a qari who would lead the salawat. And I was like the resident scholar, senior imam type position. There was a lot of turbulence in the administration of the masjid in the years that I was there. And then eventually I stepped away from that. And then I did all those other things. Kind of like different things came about at different times. And then we started our own thing, my wife and I. Alhamdulillah, it's been good. Actually, my bio is not updated. I'm not at New Horizon anymore. I'm at a different school. Bright Horizon in San Diego. Even the name is similar. Oh, Bright Horizons. My kids go to Bright Horizons here in Dallas. I don't know if it's the same. Yeah, it's the same name, but different. They're not connected at all as far as I know. So just this year, I'm like four weeks in or something. Just started. Oh, congratulations. Alhamdulillah. How was the college scene when you were – you still doing chaplaincy at colleges? I can't now. Last year even I did UCSD a little bit. But it wasn't like an official thing. It was more of just we're in the neighborhood, we'll come type thing. So what's the college scene like now or before? When you were doing it – because when you were in college as a new Muslim, right, there was a scenery, there was an experience. Do you get nostalgia? Like when you go back there – I don't know if you go to the same college, but just the college scene, how was it for you being someone that came to Islam in that environment and then going back and serving the community now?
Probably when you dealt with a convert, have you seen someone like you before? You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. How was that? Oh, it's beautiful, man. College campuses are like – they're so beautiful. Yeah, man. I love it too. You see these young kids and you see these students and you just see the things they're thinking about and the way they're thinking about them. And sometimes you're like, man, you're totally off on this. But you want to respect their journey too, right? Like we're not there to – we're there to, of course, answer questions. We're there to provide insight. But we're not there to dictate to them how – that they should become copies of us. We're there to support them, to teach them. They might differ. They might say, like, you know what, I don't think that you're right on that. I think that you took the wrong position. We say, alhamdulillah. As long as you're thinking and you're doing your religion and you're respecting it and the tradition and people of knowledge and stuff like that, then bismillah, do your thing. But colleges are great. I mean definitely the scene has changed. I go to the same – my wife is actually there right now. She's at UCSD right now with the MSA. And we live in the same neighborhood that she grew up in. So we go to that – so when we go to UCSD, it's really – it's a trip. It's a long sight, UCSD. These places, we call it the Atalaam, you know, like in Arabic poetry. In Arabic poetry, in the beginning of Arabic poetry, the poet always kind of stands on, like, where the tent of their beloved was, right? And we met at UCSD and stuff like that. So when we go to UCSD, we – like our Atalaam. It's our, like, you know, we remember things. Like I remember when this happened here and this happened here. That's how this happened. It's, like, really cool to walk around and be like that. So alhamdulillah, it's a blessing. And the kids are beautiful. There's a lot of hope, I think. They definitely – I mean, of course, everyone has their challenges. There's challenges and there's issues and so on and so forth. But they get a lot of things right that we didn't get right.
You know, we had, like, this zeal and the respect for, like, no, this is the Qur'an. This is the sunnah. This is Islam. We're going to do Islam. You know, we had, like, that thing really probably too much sometimes. But although it sounds funny to say that, probably someone will take that clip and call me a kafir or something. You know, we were, like, a little bit too much sometimes. But these kids, like, they're really, for example, like, we weren't considerate enough, I don't think, of other people's feelings. We weren't considerate enough of, like, other people and what they're feeling, what they're going through and their experiences and stuff like that. We were just very harsh. And I don't see that with them, you know. Even the ones who are really serious, I don't see them like that. Like, they're very serious, but they also have kind of an attention to the idea of having good adab and treating people properly and stuff like that, having good manners, treating people properly, which I think is really nice. Alhamdulillah. A lot of threads. There's a lot of… Take your pick. There's a lot of threads. Some questions here too. I don't know. We do have a few questions. Usually, we play a small game of rapid fire questions before we get to the audience questions. So, maybe we'll throw some of those at you. Yeah, whatever you want. Simple things. What's your favorite NBA team? Do you watch anymore? Honest truth is I don't follow it anymore. But, you know, I'm a Lakers kid. Like, I grew up with the Lakers. The Lakers were serious in my household. Like, if the Lakers don't win, we lose sleep over it, you know. It was a big deal. And we're like the Lakers at the Forum era. People in LA know. At the Englewood Forum, not at the Staples Center. So, I grew up as a Lakers kid. Wow. Colby and everything? Yeah. Colby and Jack before.
My heart was in the Showtime era. You know, Magic Johnson, James Worthy. It was a little bit before me. I was really young then. But, like, that was… I started playing basketball when I was like five. So, it was still kind of at the tail end of that period, you know. So, I remember James Worthy, Magic Johnson, and then AC Green. AC Green. Cedric Sabalas, Van Exel, Nick Van Exel. Like, that was that era, you know. The pre-Colby era. Yeah. That's my era too, man. All right. Chocolate or vanilla? Chocolate. Spring or fall? Fall. Nice. Ché or coffee? That's a tough one. I'm raised on tea. You know, like, my mom, we used to have tea every morning. Even in high school. I used to have tea with her in the morning in high school. She's British, Canada, right? Okay. And my dad is from Pakistan. So, tea. But my wife, she always loved coffee. So, I'm torn between my childhood and my adulthood. So, usually I'm coffee in the morning and tea in the afternoon and evening. Inshallah. We'll give it to the tea, just to honor the mother. Call it omo, call it omo, call it omo. She gets three points, you know. That's why a lot of the Maritimes, they're very, like, connected to that British culture. Yeah. Even, like, the Queen passing away recently. And, like, here in Ontario, they didn't care that much. They didn't give us the day off, unfortunately. And, of course, Quebec was, like, right away, like, we don't care. No day off. Yeah. Because they're all very French influenced. But the Maritimes are, like, serious about it. And they took the day off. And it's a big business. It's a big issue there. Yeah. It's interesting.
If you had to choose between these two extremes, would you want your steak well done or rare? Well done. That's the Pakistani part of you. All right. Your favorite city, but you can't choose Mecca or Medina or Quds. Favorite city, can't choose Mecca or Medina or Quds. That's a tough one. I think I have to say Cairo. Yeah. Spent a lot of years of my life there. In the end of the day, Cairo is a love-hate relationship. Yes. You know, you definitely have days where you hate it and you definitely have days where you love it. But I haven't been back in 10 years. And the truth is that Egypt and Cairo are on my mind every single day. Every single day. I listen to Quran radio from Cairo. I have tea brought from Cairo if I want, like that particular tea that we used to drink when we were students. I have it in my cupboard. I eat ful still. I eat tamia still. Cairo is a very big part of me. Because again, you know, you grew up in SoCal, you don't really have much history, but I love history. So to be in Cairo, that like really became my home. You know, I really felt the, and students who were with me there, they'd probably be surprised because they know how much I was jaded and I would talk all kinds of craziness. But in retrospect, like Cairo is a big part of who I am. And I really understand this idea of like, if you live somewhere for four or five years, you can take the attribution of that place. You know, I really get it. Like I feel. So I miss Cairo. I appreciate you saying Pamiya and not Fidefi. I did not go unnoticed.
I was hoping you'd say Cairo. And I thought the only reason you're going to say it is because you were there for a long time. If you visit Cairo, you're never going to put Cairo on your list. But like if you live there, then it does like, for lack of a better word, infect you in many different ways. You have to really get the place, I think. You know, like if you don't get the place, you're not going to get it. But like, I miss things about Cairo that only people who really understand it would get it. Like I miss going and arguing with people in the lines and getting some food and sitting on the curb and eating it like early in the morning before the traffic gets too bad. But it's still there a little bit. And the air is still has not fully polluted. It's only half polluted. And like there's a lot of little things about Cairo that I really miss a lot. And you really feel like that's a place where despite all of its problems and all of its issues, it's a place that's alive and the people are alive. And I always think about, you know, the hip hop. There's a song by Black Star with Common called Respiration. Some people might know it from back in the day. And in the beginning of the song, it says, Escucha la la ciudad respirando. There's this voice that comes in the beginning. It says, listen to it. The city is breathing. And I always felt like when I was in Cairo, you could feel the city breathing. And if you wake up early enough, you can actually feel it wake up. Which is like, I really miss that, you know. Make me feel nostalgic. People who lived in Cairo, it's enough to make you cry. I know it because I want to cry right now. OK. Strange question. What is the most interesting thing you've ever tasted or eaten? Maybe fesih? I don't know if I ever tried it.
God, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. The first I can tell you the first thing that comes to my mind is fish. I think it's called fish and brewis. They make it in Newfoundland. It's like a dish with fish and old bread and potatoes. First thing that comes to mind, but I don't I don't know. I want to look that up now. I'm going to try that. It's hard to make. You have to really write bread. What superpower do you wish you had? What superpower do I wish I had? Wiliah? That one needs its own episode. God, I don't know. I don't know. It'll take too long to think about it. And I know it's rapid fire. OK, this is a derivation of that question. If you had to be an animal, which one would you choose? I think some sort of bear. Bear. Yeah, I like falcons and eagles and stuff like that. But I think the bear. I want to hibernate. Yeah, it's like a little bit dangerous at the same time, but it's also a little bit nice. And like, it's kind of versatile. I think bears are cool. I like that one. I also like big cats, but I think if I had to choose one, I'd probably go with the bear. Yeah. OK, so we have a few questions. Interesting ones. Let's see which one to take first. Since we're talking about Cairo, we'll take this one first.
As-salamu alaykum. What are your thoughts on taking your kids abroad, for example, Egypt, spend time in a Muslim majority culture? I think at this point it's almost like wadjet. I think it's really important. I think it's really important, but I think it has to be done carefully and wisely. So, for example, like a lot of there's a lot of people, maybe they go to Cairo, they don't spend a lot of time there. It becomes instead of being something that motivates them, it becomes a fitna for them, like a test for them. But I think that there's I think it's important for us to for ourselves and for our children to experience places where Muslims are the majority. And, you know, where that might be is, you know, depends on the person and their background and their experiences and so on and so forth. But I think that it's good to do that. Yeah, I think that's a good caveat. Like if your family in Egypt, for example, are wealthy and part of like that elite group, there might be more fitna there for them than here in North America. So you should have to be aware of where you're putting them. Sometimes, too, you might go somewhere and like it depends on I think we have to be really wise about it. You know, like maybe it depends on the psychological background of the person, how they're thinking and stuff. They might go to a place and be like, oh, look, Muslims are really backwards and they're not at a point where they can see the beauty in it. Or they might go somewhere else and they might feel like, wow, you can really feel the magnificence of Islam in this place. And that would be great. You know, so I think we have to be wise about it. But I think that it's important to do because we need to see places where you just see believers. You know, no politics, no identity, no. Not that those are issues. Like I'm just saying you just see people who are like they just love Islam. And, you know, they sit in the masjid and they pray and they make dua and they cry and like they just have like this devotion and the love for deen.
It's important that we see that and not just like when we get in our car and get out of our house and go to the masjid and see it there. But in society. So this is a question, if you can remember, can you tell us what it is in the autobiography of Malcolm X that caused your decision to occur? The decision, obviously, to become Muslim. So the honest answer to that would be to say that I'm not really sure. However, many years later, I heard Dr. Omar Farooq Abdullah say something about his experience with the autobiography. And it really resonated with me. And I think that a portion of it, probably all of it was actually true for me, but I didn't have enough. Introspection to realize what was happening, you know, so Dr. Omar says that he read the autobiography in the beginning of 1970. And then he picked it up and he started to read it and he couldn't put it down and he read it all the way through the night. And the next morning when he looked out on the lake in Ithaca, he was at Cornell at that time, and he asked himself, what did you get from this book? Which I think is a really interesting practice, right? Like to read a book and ask yourself, what did I get from this book? So he asked himself, what did I get from this book? And he said, I got two things. First thing was I got the Allah and God are the same thing. And this one needs like a couple of moments, actually, because what he says, he'll say it himself, is that he knew that Allah and God were the same thing intellectually. But when he read the book, he really knew that Allah and God were the same thing. And I think that for a lot of people who grew up in our era and maybe even now in America, there's this feeling of like Islam is still kind of foreign. Is it for me? Is it not for me? But when you read the autobiography, like no, Allah and God are the same thing. This is for me. I can do this. I get Malcolm and I get his experience. And if it worked for him, it can work for me.
And the second thing he says that he got out of it was that it's very clear that God is real and exists because of the way that he guided Malcolm in his life. And in retrospect, I think that both of those were true for me. But did I think that at the time? I'm not that intelligent to make these kind of observations. But I think that both of those things were true for me in terms of my own personal experience. I mean, that one book has such a huge impact on so many different people. Countless. I met a reporter one time who was traveling around America talking to new Muslims. And she said she asked me, what how did you become? I said, I read the autobiography of Malcolm X. And she said, I've been traveling around the country and every single person I've asked this question to has said the autobiography of Malcolm X. I was like, Allahu Akbar. And that's really who was this man? Forget who was this man in the physical world that we know, who was this man in the spiritual world? To have that kind of impact upon us. I mean, Allah have mercy on him and help him and his family and give them all khair. It's such a sign of righteousness. This question, I'm a convert Muslim and my father is 80 years old now and he's Christian. He made a testament that when he dies, he wants his body to be burnt. So my question is, can I attend the funeral or should I not go in general? I think basically to attend the funeral. Yeah, I mean, I feel shy to answer the question. You guys are here. I don't know how we how we manage this. I can tell you what I would do. I would go and I would just not partake in any religious ceremony.
Like if there's some religious portion of the ceremony, I would just not pray to Jesus or anything like that. But otherwise, I would I would be there for my father and my family. So these are two questions somewhat similar and they are complicated, so I feel a bit guilty bringing that up. So the first question here, it says, would you say hip hop is why you converted? And the second question, a little bit more depth, says, you know, why do some Muslim speakers and orators feel the need to burn the bridge of art that brings people like Sheikh Jamed to Islam by saying music and many forms of artistic expression are haram? So it is a complex question because obviously we know the fifth and we know that most scholars, although not all, but most scholars and the former that have the opinion that music is not permissible. So how do you. But again, there are scholars who do make exceptions to this and it did have an effect on your life and other people as well. I mean, we had Sheikh Jihad on our program and his masjid in L.A. as well, and people who are hip hop artists used to go pray there. And so there is that connection where a lot of people in the hip hop community, especially back then, did either come to Islam one way or another. So I'd love your thoughts on this. Shout out to Imam Jihad, all respect to him and to his father and to his community. I haven't had as much interaction with them as I've always wanted to, but I do believe that his father and him are there are imams and may Allah bless them and continue to give them taufeeq.
The Azharian me wants to nitpick the question and be like, do you think it was the Prophet who guided you to Islam? No, it's Allah who guided me to Islam. But to not nitpick the question, the Azharians, we like to be very particular about words. No, it's good to actually bring that up. But, you know, there's a hadith, I'm not sure how strong it is, but I hear it all the time, that Allah will aid this religion sometimes by corrupt people. And so I say that to say that just because someone is guided to Islam by something doesn't necessarily mean that it's right. And I think that the people who have reservations around issues related to music or various issues of the arts, I believe that they have those reservations based on religious conviction and sincerity. You know, that they believe that these things are haram or these things are suspect, at least, or makroo maybe or haram or whatever else it might be. I think that that's why people hold the positions that they hold. Over time, what do I personally lean to is probably not as strict a position on many of these things as a lot of people hold. But I don't think that I think that if someone is holding a position out of conviction and it's based in the tradition, you know, we can't blame them for that. I do think that the arts have a major role in guiding people and representing culture and affecting culture and representing beauty and drawing people to beauty. And I think the arts are extremely important. How we engage with them, the limits on that and so on and so forth, those are big discussions. But, you know, those are my thoughts. That's a big topic. Art and culture is a huge topic, and I think it's extremely important.
And I think that, you know, Malcolm was a huge cultural icon. Muhammad Ali was a huge cultural icon. He was a boxer. You know, Khabib is a huge cultural icon. He's an MMA fighter, or he was. But like these are it's not always that everything in life and in civilization and in history and stuff like that is super clear in black and white. But the halal is still the halal and the haram is still the haram. And some things we differ upon. I appreciate that. It is a complicated question and there is a lot of elements to it. I think last week we had Sheikh Mustafa Ammar on and we were talking about how culture is so important and people come to Islam through culture more than more than all the khutbahs we can give. And people stay in Islam on that, too, by the way. It's also very important for us to understand, you know, like, what are we going to do when it comes to developing a vibrant, attractive Muslim American culture? You know, not in any sort of haram way, but like something that people want to be a part of and something that people feel like is is aiding them to do their religion and live where they live and deal with the things that they deal with and so on and so forth. And most of our Muslim majority places that have been there for a long time, they have some sort of standing religious culture that works for that. And so, you know, that's that's part of the task at hand. I mean, well, Sheikh, Jazakallah khair for your time. I really appreciate it. And I think we learned a lot from your story and from all the wisdom that you dropped today. And I think the audience really loved it as well. I could tell from the amount of activity we had in the chat. Alhamdulillah. Jazakallah khair. And I hope, inshallah, we can have you on sometime in the future as well. Insha'Allah. I want to say salam to all my students. I told some of them about it and they said, can we come? And what is the word they use? Like basically they're going to come in like flood the comments.
But alhamdulillah, they didn't do that. Only one of them came and you know, wa alaykum salam to her. Allah bless you students. Allah bless you Sheikh. Allah bless you for your work. I look forward to meeting you guys both in person inshallah. Insha'Allah. Jazakallah. Jazakallah khair. Salamu alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh. Salam.
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