# I Was The Biggest Atheist Until Gaza | Gaza Diaries | Dr. Omar Suleiman and Robert Martin

**Author:** Dr. Omar Suleiman
**Series:** Gaza Diaries with Dr. Omar Suleiman
**Published:** 2025-12-26
**YouTube:** https://youtu.be/Cbgy5CKGaCk
**URL:** https://yaqeeninstitute.org/watch/series/gaza-diaries/i-was-the-biggest-atheist-until-gaza-gaza-diaries-dr-omar-suleiman-and-robert-martin
**Topics:** Politics & Practical Theology, Social Justice

## Description
Palestine has led many to Islam. Just in the last few weeks, long-term activist for Palestine, Robert Martin, embraced the faith after many years of working among Muslims. In this Gaza Diaries interview with Dr. Omar Suleiman, Martin recalls his earliest visits to the Holy Land, when he was warmly...

## Chapters
- 0:00 Introduction to Robert Martin's Journey
- 1:34 Embracing Islam: A New Beginning
- 6:45 The Palestinian Struggle and Awakening
- 16:38 Reflections on Faith and Identity
- 28:57 Personal Journey to Islam
- 30:22 Reflections on the Quran and Mental Health
- 34:47 Experiences in Palestine
- 49:17 Confronting Islamophobia and Solidarity

## Transcript
**[0:00]** So Robert, I walk into a masjid in Australia and I bump into you on the staircase going up to the prayer area. And you have a minute to introduce yourself, who you are, why you're

**[0:21]** at the masjid, what your journey is. How do you introduce your incredible journey in one minute? Wow, what a start. Thank you very much. Nice to meet you. It's an honor to be here. My name is Robert Martin. I'm pretty passionate about Palestine. I have been through

**[0:39]** a journey of an interesting childhood that set me up for an interesting adolescent time where I was atheist, agnostic, atheist, agnostic. I was brought up as a Christian, but not in a very good way. I had a very, very best friend of mine who's Palestinian. He used

**[0:57]** to tell me about Palestine and I never believed him. I would then see the news and our white news as I like to call it would say that Israel had the right to defend itself and that the Palestinians were crazy terrorists and all I wanted to do was kill the Palestinians. And so I bought that lie. I believed it. 2014 came around. I saw that Israel was bombing

**[1:16]** and killing children. They were killing people that did not have an army. They have no army whatsoever. I didn't know where to get my information from. So I went to Palestine in 2014 and my life changed. My life absolutely changed forever for the better.

**[1:35]** So Robert, I've been following you for a while as many Muslims have and immense gratitude that we have for you. And I have to be honest that there are a few times that I saw you along the journey and I said, man, I hope he becomes Muslim one day. You have been Muslim

**[1:52]** at this point. This post goes out a week ago or a week and a half ago, just to give people sort of the background of how this interview came to be. The post goes online that Robert Martin is embracing Islam. You quote that graphic and say that it's true. I reach out

**[2:12]** to you and you respond very kindly about your journey. And you said that you wanted to actually make some videos talking about your journey to Islam and there's so much to unpack. And I said, well, how about we do a Gaza diary? And so I'm extremely grateful

**[2:28]** to you for accepting. I just want to say first and foremost that we're proud to have you as a brother in faith. We were already proud to have you as a brother in humanity. And thank you for everything that you've done. May Allah reward you immensely. How has it

**[2:46]** been for the last two weeks? Let's start with the last two weeks and then we'll jump into the last 20 years or so, I guess. I've got goosebumps on my arms here. I don't know if you could see, but the last two weeks have been amazing. Totally incredible. I anticipated congratulations and a few people being very

**[3:05]** happy because for 10 years, people were saying, when are you going to become Muslim? When are you going to do the right thing? You should be a Muslim. There's that and the other. And it was all coming out of good heart. I never had anyone try and shove it down my throat, but because I've been around Muslims for so long and to see how they see the world. And

**[3:24]** also when I have seen people talk about Islam and I know I've read the Quran and so people have been waiting for it to happen. But I've got to tell you, I was blown away. Absolutely

**[3:39]** blown away. I mean, the post that I did, did 2 million views on my Instagram. What 2 million views on my X. People like yourself reaching out to me, which I found very, very touching because I've been following you for a long time and learning from you. I posted about the Quran 10 years ago because I said that the Quran is a book that needs to be not just

**[3:59]** read, but to be understood and to continue to understand. And that was 10 years ago. And so I think a lot of people then thought that I was close, but things happened and it's really hard to explain, but it's a beautiful thing. I haven't had any negativity at all.

**[4:17]** I've had people saying, oh, you're wrong. Congratulations on getting hugs from complete strangers. I mean, to the point today that was very moving. I was at an Islamic funeral today. Someone that used to work for me 10 years ago, because I had a prayer room for

**[4:34]** my Islamic Muslim friends. And he texted me at 7:13 on Sunday morning, congratulating me and wanted to catch up. And he had passed away by 12 o'clock that day. And so that also

**[4:49]** was a really, really, really moving. And then to go to the mosque today and have people saying, Rob, it's been amazing. It's been truly amazing. And I know that I've made the right decision. My decision, I'm very at peace with my decision and looking forward to learning

**[5:09]** what I need to learn. And I know that it's going to be a lifelong learning experience. Would you mind mentioning the brother's name so that we can honor him properly? Adhil Hussain. May Allah have mercy on him. I love you, Adhil.

**[5:24]** We had a really, really good connection years ago. And the fact that, I mean, he died playing cricket and cricket was his sport. He loved it. So that's a good thing. But I also understand that religion can help through these times of people passing because they know they're

**[5:42]** going to their next life and their family know. It can be sad, but it also comes with, I suppose, the ability to cope better when you have Islam. Well, it's that certain knowledge of continued connection that now exists between him and

**[5:59]** his Creator, him and his family that's not severed, but only temporarily disconnected. And then him and his siblings in faith as well. And that includes you now. And you got to live to embrace the faith. And now you pray for him and it reaches him. And he knows that. And I'm sure that he was overjoyed when you became Muslim.

**[6:19]** And I'm sure that he'll be overjoyed by the thousands and thousands of people that will watch this and now pray for him as well. So may Allah have mercy on him. And thank you for bringing him into this as well. The story over these last few years. So when I said,

**[6:34]** man, I hope he becomes Muslim is actually that Quran video that you did. A lot of people saw that video. And the conversion, if you will, from being an anti-Muslim, anti-Arab

**[6:51]** bigot to being pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist, that's something that we've heard many, many times over the last few years. We've seen it. We have many folks that have changed. Public opinion is changing everywhere despite billions of dollars being poured into Zionist propaganda

**[7:09]** in Australia, in America, and wherever it may be. But the tide has definitely turned. And we're seeing that change. I think the story of being an atheist and being an anti-Muslim bigot, by your own words, you talk about sort of being cured from racism. So being an atheist and being an

**[7:27]** anti-Arab, anti-Muslim bigot to being a Muslim, pro-Palestinian. If someone was sitting with you 15 years ago and told you that you'd be doing an interview, wearing a Palestinian flag, donned in these garments, speaking about now believing in God 15 years ago, what would you

**[7:47]** say to that person 15 years ago? Not a chance. Not an absolute chance that that would ever happen. I was very, very... Look, I like to refer to it as a subconscious racist because I didn't realize. So I didn't have a hate, but I had a subconscious racist, which was very, very powerful

**[8:06]** because I was racist against my best friend. And when I say my best friend, he was my best man at my wedding. And he was also my business partner. My business partner. And you've probably heard of his name is Nasser Mashni. He is the number one speaker in Australia. He's the president of APAN,

**[8:25]** which is the number one body here for Palestine. And if he couldn't crack me, there was going to be nobody that could crack me. It's bizarre when you look back at it. I would be laughing at that person. I'd say, no, no chance. So here you are now, over a decade later.

**[8:42]** Tell me about the first time you made your first conversion to doing away with that subconscious racism and seeing the Palestinians as full human beings that have a right to exist and praising their resilience and understanding the reality of the ugly occupation that they've been

**[9:00]** enduring. So I think it was an eye opener that Israel was as bad as it was. I didn't realize. I think that was my first eye opening. So in 2014, Israel started bombing Gaza and you see pictures come out of Gaza of children and mothers and fathers. And it would be always the same

**[9:18]** rhetoric. And so I started to read up and then I figured out that obviously that Palestine doesn't have any navies, naval ships. They don't have tanks. They don't have jeeps. They don't have any army whatsoever. And you've got one of the top military minds bombing these people and getting

**[9:35]** away with it. And so I thought this, this can't be right. And so I started to read a little bit, and you know, you've got to dig beneath the surface. And two documents I came across. One is the Hasbara Guide book, which teaches people in university how to speak about Israel and how to

**[9:54]** demonize the Palestinians. And the other one is the Israel Project, which was done by a marketing company doing exactly the same thing. And in these books, it would say every single time that you use the word Palestine or Palestinian, put the word terrorist in front of it. Every time a

**[10:10]** Palestinian is killed, they died. Every time a Palestinian is killed, don't give them their name. Leave them nameless. So basically what you're doing is you're giving them the terrorist brand, and that's it. And they deserve their own death. But when an Israeli was killed, they were murdered

**[10:28]** or massacred. They were a loving father of how many kids, they would name all the kids. They'd tell you what this particular person did for a job. And again, you would start to go, hang on, this doesn't make sense. Well, that document went far beyond the universities, because I saw our newsreaders doing the same thing. They were using the same words,

**[10:48]** exactly the same words. And then our politicians, again, would parrot the same propaganda in and out. And for anyone that had no idea or anyone that had basically no idea at all, they would be leaning towards Israel. They would be leaning towards Israel and they would lean against the

**[11:08]** Palestinians because they're Islamists, they're terrorists. And I started to see that it wasn't right. I started to type on Facebook, and when I typed something, it went viral. But when my mate,

**[11:25]** my Palestinian friend, he typed exactly the same thing, it didn't go anywhere. That was my first real scene to racism. I was a white atheist. And so people believe me, but we don't believe our Palestinian brothers and sisters. And I was one of those people. I was one of those people.

**[11:43]** But then when I started to realize what Israel was getting away with, I thought, you know what? And a few people said, Rob, you've never been, how would you know anything about it? And I said, have you been? And they would say, no, but I don't care. And so I packed my bags. I went over

**[11:59]** in 2014 on my own, not part of a group, just wanted to see what was going on. And my mind was blown, completely flipped. The script was flipped, completely flipped. Because when you go to Palestine, the only way that I was going to get killed was too much love, too much food,

**[12:18]** too much humor, too much shisha, too many cigarettes, too much coffee. That's what it was about. That's the only way they were dangerous to me. And I wandered around villages on my own, and they would not have known whether I was Jewish or not, which shows that you can be a Jew and

**[12:37]** walk around those areas quite safely. But the media will tell you completely different. And I went completely on my own to villages. I was invited into houses. None of them wanted anything from me. All they said was, Rob, please tell the world the truth about us.

**[12:54]** We just want them to know that we are a good people. We have no problem with Jews. We have a problem with the occupation and Zionism. And I would ask a lot of them, what do you think of the Jews? I was told in a very stern way, we have no problem with the Jews. This was the occupation

**[13:14]** and Zionism. We just want to live in freedom. We want the freedom to move, the freedom to travel, the freedom of all of those things that you and I both have, that they don't have. That's what they want. And it's not too much to ask, is it?

**[13:31]** So Rob, when you're thinking about people that are in the same situation that you were in before you went to Palestine, I think for many of us, this is a point of just deep frustration, that it's very hard for us to distinguish between those that are malicious and nefarious and those

**[13:50]** who are just genuinely misinformed. And obviously, when we dig deep into the life of the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ), Oh God, forgive my people. They just don't know any better. What do you say to the Palestinians, to the Muslims, or maybe even to someone like yourself today that's looking at those who are

**[14:11]** genuinely misinformed and just disgusted? We don't want to excuse genocide. We don't want to excuse bigotry. We shouldn't excuse genocide. It's very hard to compare this world that we're in right now to 2014. I mean, frankly, with social media, what do we do with people that are genuinely misinformed? How do we even make that calculus? Should we even be offering any

**[14:30]** type of grace to folks that are buried in propaganda like you once were? Well, you know, it's harder today because of social media. Just like you said, you can't scroll or you can't be sitting next to somebody on a bus while they're scrolling and not see

**[14:46]** what's coming out of Gaza. You can't see or unsee these dead children. There's no excuse. And I understand that human beings, that, you know, we're lazy and we're selfish and we only care about, you know, what can affect us because it'll never happen here. But we need to do better.

**[15:04]** And I believe that if someone's in a position that they can make a difference, that they have that obligation to do that. That is something that they must do. And we all do things differently. I don't expect people to go over there and do what I did. I don't expect that from people. But I do expect people to at least try and get some information before they start having a go

**[15:25]** at it. Because, you know, with Islam, you see these stupid, ignorant comments that people just like to type away. You know, they make no sense. They're nonsensical and they're so not true. But yet they love to parrot this. And then another ignorant person will do the same thing. And it's

**[15:43]** the same with the Palestinians. The Palestinians have been forgotten. Forgotten for so long. But not forgotten because the governments have really known about it. They have known about it. But they've decided to be complicit. And...

**[16:00]** October 7th was always going to happen. Because there's so many people who will go with their head in the sand. Not helping them out. Not holding our governments to account. Your government especially to account. Because they're the ones that are allowing Israel to get away with what they are.

**[16:18]** And so we the people need to do more. The people will change the governments and then those governments hopefully will do what the people have asked them to represent. But at the moment it's not like that. Because the people are with Palestine. The people are with Palestine worldwide.

**[16:34]** But the governments aren't doing what the people are asking. So Robert what do you think has changed this time? I mean I think that the answer in some way is obvious. But if you're explaining to someone hopefully you know ten years from now after Palestine has long been liberated.

**[16:51]** And we're talking about how this episode of history transpired. What was different about this time? What's different about this versus 2014 when you went? Versus the multiple episodes of cruelty shown by the occupation towards the Palestinian people?

**[17:08]** Well there's nothing different. Because anyone like... I mean especially for me 2014 I've read a lot of books since. They've been doing the same thing for so many years. But they've been waiting for the opportunity that they can capitalize and absolutely decimate Palestine.

**[17:24]** Gaza especially. And they've been waiting for that opportunity. And they are doing exactly what they've said. I mean they have politicians have been saying that they're going to do this for ten years. For twenty years. I mean a few of them have said what we're going to do is we're going to bomb them back to the Stone Age.

**[17:40]** That was twelve years ago that was said by an Israeli politician. So it's nothing new. But what is new is the barbaric numbers. There's got to be between two and six hundred thousand dead so far.

**[17:55]** They don't know. People are also going to die from the wounds that they have. They've had children dying from trying to get food. They have infections on their feet. And so all of these different things are happening. There's going to be so much death.

**[18:10]** Yeah. It's... Yeah. It's... That's... And the difference is that the world has seen Israel for what it is. Do you think that the Zionists overplayed their hand? Do you think that they perhaps underestimated the rise of pro-Palestinian sentiment around the world and how the tide would turn?

**[18:34]** And thought that maybe they could just get away with this destruction and keep, you know, just replaying the October 7th tape over and over and over again. So that people would allow this to happen. Yeah. I think that's a very good point because, I mean, every other time, I mean, the Israelis have this thing where they call it mowing the lawn.

**[18:53]** And they'll go in there and they'll get rid of some infrastructure. They'll kill a whole lot of people and, you know, keep the Palestinians where they need them to be. And I think you're right because, look, we all move on. We all move on. And that's just what happens. There'll be something else that happens.

**[19:08]** And then, you know, the Palestinians will be forgotten. But, I mean, we still don't talk about what's happening in the occupied West Bank. That's still not spoken about. But, yeah, I agree. I think that the Israelis really thought that they could just get away with it. They're so arrogant. They're so arrogant.

**[19:24]** And they have every right to be arrogant because they've got away with it in the past. So why wouldn't they be arrogant? As we're thinking about where we are right now, I often say that I've never seen in my life a more vivid contrast of faith and beauty.

**[19:40]** And cruelty and ugliness. The people of Gaza have shown such incredible resilience and faith. Much of that love and that dignity that you witnessed firsthand when you went to Palestine the multiple times that you did.

**[19:56]** People are experiencing it or seeing it on their screens and putting themselves in their shoes and thinking, I would never be able to carry myself with such grace under such circumstances. On the other hand, the cruelty, the viciousness, the mockery for any semblance of international law or so-called human dignity.

**[20:15]** So this contrast is so vivid. What makes this contrast, though, so unique in showing people the beauty of Islam as a religion? Like, you were not Muslim a few weeks ago. So how do you explain that transition, that second conversion, if you will?

**[20:34]** Like, what about the people of Palestine particularly shows the beauty of Islam? It gives them peace. That's one thing I noticed because you'd hear gunshots going around you. There'd be raids going on around you. But they could still have a bit of happiness because they knew what was coming.

**[20:53]** This is a test and that they're going to be okay. I've got a quick story. Both of my parents were very religious Christians. And they both died in the same room, in the same hospital, about 15 months apart.

**[21:08]** And I was with them both until their last breath. And they were both ready to meet their maker. And that gave them a level of, I'm not fearful. I'm not fearful. I've had a good life. It's time for me to go and I'm going to be okay.

**[21:25]** And I remember seeing that. It didn't turn me religious. But I remember seeing that and it made a big difference. And Dad was the same. Dad, he pushed a little bit further and again. And then when you go to Palestine and you see these people that are completely under the boot of an Israeli society,

**[21:49]** where their mum and their dad, they don't always want to let their kids out because the kids may not come back. They may not come back. There's a high probability that they won't come back. There's a high probability that they all have trauma. And so we don't know how they're going to react.

**[22:05]** There's a high probability that one of the kids is going to end up in jail for doing nothing, administrative detention, and end up in there for a long time. There's a huge chance that a house will get demolished.

**[22:20]** And when I say a huge chance, it happens every day. This isn't new. This happens every single day. It can be the toss of a coin. But yet when you go to the mosque, you feel something.

**[22:36]** And I think there's a feeling that they're all together as well. I think that's one of the feelings. But it's the feeling between God and themselves and the conversations that help them get through. And I don't think that if you had a group of atheists in Palestine, they wouldn't survive.

**[22:57]** That's a profound sentence. If the Palestinians were atheists, they would not survive. I don't think so. This would have long been done. I mean, Palestine would have been erased decades ago. And if we're talking about the Zionists counting on their propaganda to cover their crimes this time around,

**[23:16]** despite the open brutality, they've also been counting on the Palestinian cause to disappear decades ago. Because of Arab complicity, government's complicity, right? Palestine is a thorn. Because if you destroy people's identity in every way, the way they have tried to,

**[23:35]** then at some point they're supposed to give up. But they would not have made it this far if they were atheists. One of the things about Gaza in particular is that you watch these people and they will complain about everybody else in the world. And then at the end they'll say, but alhamdulillah, all thanks and praise is due to Allah.

**[23:53]** God is enough for us. Allah is enough for us. They can immediately switch into that mode. Because as disgusted as they are by the betrayal of the world, they are content by the designer of the world's plan, being God himself.

**[24:09]** And so they're able to constantly settle themselves in that. And that's what gives them dignity and grace. And allows them to be such beautiful people despite all the ugliness and cruelty that's been hurled towards them. But I'm going to ask you a really deep and personal question now. You've been beautifully vulnerable.

**[24:26]** How long were you an atheist for? And what's it been like to talk to Allah for the first time in so many years? To go from denying the existence of a God to now believing in God in a very specific way.

**[24:41]** I was an atheist up until two weeks ago. Put it that way. And look, I have a very colorful upbringing. So I was a late adoption. I was in home. So I was neglected and abused and all of that sort of stuff.

**[24:56]** And then I got given at the age of four to these two parents that I told you who died. They were good people, but they didn't know how to handle a damaged child. And so they tried to ram Christian beliefs down my throat and they would use it as a threat saying,

**[25:13]** if you don't do this, God's going to punish you. If you don't do this, God's going to do this. And so I was, you know, I used to go to church because I was forced to. And every sermon I thought was about me in a bad way. I thought, oh my gosh, I thought that. And so I've never been, never been religious.

**[25:31]** My partner will say to anyone that asks, Rob was the biggest atheist in the world. So not in the top five, not in the top 10, but the number one. And so it's been a big surprise for people.

**[25:48]** But then again, people don't know what I've witnessed. They don't know what I've witnessed over my journey in Palestine twice and on the Freedom Flotilla and in their prisons and all of these things. I've witnessed a lot and maybe for a lot of time I kept putting it in the back burner

**[26:04]** because I just was so, such a habit of being an atheist because it is an atheist. You know, I was a strong atheist too. I never had a problem with other people's religion though. I never had a problem with it.

**[26:19]** I always thought religion was beautiful, but I didn't understand it and I didn't, you can't just be a religious person because you want to. It's not how it works. It's not how it works. But I envied a lot of people that were religious because it showed how they got over certain incidents

**[26:37]** in their life or how that they, I mean, especially Islam. I mean, the fact that you're praying five times a day, I mean, to me, it's a real, you're really putting in to this. It's not, you know, you're just going to say a prayer here or there.

**[26:54]** You're really, really putting everything into it and it's a magnificent thing. It's a beautiful thing and I believe that it helps people live longer and less stress if they can do it right.

**[27:10]** Ironically, it was an Aussie who said to me just a few days ago, he said that if I believed in God the way you believe in God, I would be doing with my life exactly what you're doing with your life. But he said, I'm right at that last step.

**[27:26]** Talk about that trepidation of the last step. Like, am I really going to do this? Am I really going to become Muslim? You know, it's one thing to convert your political views. It's another thing to convert theologically and religiously. That last step of trepidation, like, am I really going to do this?

**[27:43]** And then maybe the way you felt when that graphic went out online, like, Robert Martin is Muslim. What's it like for you to see Robert Martin is Muslim online, right, and that being the news? Sometimes it's like you've got to step out and see the news play out about you

**[27:58]** while you're observing it. Well, I still find it difficult, and I do. I still find it difficult to reconcile. It's a – and I wouldn't expect it not to be. I woke up the other morning and thought, I'm a Muslim.

**[28:15]** That's pretty cool. This is cool. But my last – and another thing I should tell you, look, I went to the mosque the other day. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm learning. This guy came up to me. I didn't expect this at all, and he said, how you going, mate?

**[28:30]** What are you doing? Do you need a hand? Full Aussie accent. Full Aussie accent. Full Aussie. And I thought, I wouldn't – I don't know why, but I wasn't expecting that. He was really helpful. That was really good. But I didn't want to be a lazy Muslim, if I'm being completely honest with you.

**[28:50]** And I also thought that you needed to know more about Islam to be one. And then I've been speaking to people like Shaykh Allah in Melbourne, Heidelberg Mosque. We're very, very close. He's been planting seeds for me.

**[29:06]** He hasn't been pushing me. We're just planting seeds. And then I've got my friend also who's been training me, Ahmed Basel, who I have one-on-one lessons. And I said, look, I just don't think I can do it.

**[29:23]** I don't know it. I don't know enough. And he said, Rob, you become a doctor, but it takes you years to get there. And I started to think maybe they're right. I don't need to know it all because I won't know it all for 20 years.

**[29:39]** And then I thought, yeah. And then it sort of just clicked. It sort of just clicked. That click is God turning the heart. The Prophet (ﷺ) talks about the turning of hearts. And anyone who's ever had that change of heart, that true turning of heart,

**[29:57]** would tell you what that click feels like, but can't quite put it into words. I'll tell you something else, and it's just off the cuff, but I've read a lot of mental health books over the years, self-help books. And I've had some mental health issues like everybody does these days.

**[30:16]** And all of the self-help books, they say to take time out. The Quran said this 1,400 years ago. There's so many things within these books. You've got Alcoholics Anonymous. You've got Narcotics Anonymous. You've got all of these other groups of books.

**[30:31]** And all the things that they sort of say that you should do are basically in the Quran as well. Or if you live by that life, you're going to be pretty good. And that sort of clicked maybe a year or two ago, and I found that really interesting.

**[30:47]** Sort of like the Quran is the self-help book, if you will, of everybody in Gaza, right? Well, it is. It is, and including the kids. Yeah, and including the kids. Because, look, I've got three daughters and a grandson,

**[31:02]** and I know that if my 12-year-old was living in Gaza and she doesn't have religion, she would really struggle. But these kids, they're going to struggle still. I mean, let's get no shadow of a doubt, they're going to struggle. But when they see their parents praying and they can see that there's more

**[31:18]** and there's more hope and maybe the world hasn't helped them, but there is still hope for them. That is a huge thing that will get these kids through, a huge thing. And I think it's very understated, very, very understated.

**[31:38]** But I know also that when I'm speaking about Palestine, I also have to say that there are plenty of Christians and plenty of atheists in occupied West Bank and stuff. So it's not a religious war. They just happen to be a very religious group in Gaza, and thank goodness for that.

**[31:55]** Thank God for that. Your childhood difficulties and struggles. I think there is this assumption that if you've been quote-unquote damaged, you have to reduce yourself to a damaged identity and accept that you're broken and less than, and that you are doomed to repeat the same types of transgressions that were done to you to others, and that you can't become a rectifier in this world, a reformer in this world.

**[32:29]** You can't be whole or help make the world whole. And you are, of course, challenging that assumption, as are, you know, in many ways, the Palestinians themselves, the Palestinians are challenging that assumption. You know, in many ways, we see that the Palestinians are actually the freest people on earth, despite living under occupation.

**[32:50]** I think that's deeply profound about your story and how it mirrors. And of course, you and I would both agree that we can't take away from their struggle because they are, at the end of the day, making the greatest sacrifice and, unfortunately, you know, having to struggle disproportionately compared to the rest of us.

**[33:08]** But just as we want to reflect through our allyship to them in the midst of their devastation, their resilience and their faith and their courage, in many ways, we can look at our own stories. And I've heard this from many people, like I've heard from many people that would say that, you know, I thought that I had problems, that this, in many ways, getting involved with the Palestinian cause allowed me to not minimize my problems, but to put them in perspective.

**[33:36]** And to channel my pain into being a pain reliever for the Palestinian people to the greatest extent that I could possibly be. I've heard that from many people, people that were born and raised Muslim and people like yourself that became Muslim.

**[33:51]** Can you just kind of give us like a few flashpoints along the way, like if you were to look back, because there were certain things that helped you become Muslim or helped you get to this point or helped you be the person that you are today. And I think you would contend and we would all say that we're still works in progress.

**[34:09]** What were some things that helped you understand Islam better? What were some things that helped you understand purpose better? What are some things along the way that perhaps we can glean some advice from you as to how we treat others that are on that journey as well, trying to find themselves and find Palestine and God in the process also.

**[34:28]** When I first got to Palestine, I went to a village called Bil'in. That's where Five Broken Cameras was filmed, which is a famous film. It's called that because five cameras were broken by the army. That's before we were uploading. So that's what they did.

**[34:45]** I was a bit lost. I couldn't find where I was supposed to be going. I heard the adhan. So I went towards it. This is 2014, first day, first afternoon or evening. And so I went down towards the adhan.

**[35:01]** You can hear gunshots in the background. You can hear dogs going and gunshots and the adhan. And I thought, I'm going to just sit here. I've always loved the adhan. Always. It's just a magnificent, soothing sound.

**[35:18]** And this gentleman came out and he said, are you okay? And I said, yeah, I'm okay. Thanks. I'm just lost. And he didn't look at me like, or he didn't check to see where I was from. I could have been an Israeli coming through there to have a look and, you know, do things.

**[35:37]** And he just invited me into the mosque where I sat for an hour or so before heading off again. And I thought, how good is that? That is an amazing thing. Gunshots though, and the adhan.

**[35:52]** First day in Palestine. And so, you know, this is, you can obviously, you know, see where, you know, the story ends up because I saw many things like this, but that was one of them. One of my dear friends said, look, Rob, people are asking you to become Muslim because they

**[36:10]** want you to feel the love that they feel in Islam. Wow. And I thought, and that was one of the things I got really thinking going, wow. And that's what it was. And then he backs up again.

**[36:27]** And I thought that was a beautiful thing. And that was a long ago. And so that was one of the catalysts for me to move forward with it because there was no pressure there. And when he said that to us, sort of, it made sense.

**[36:43]** It made sense. You know, you have different groups like Christian groups coming up on your door and they, you know, they want you to come in and they try and sell it to you. It wasn't like that at all. I have been involved with other religions and been sort of, not too inside of them,

**[37:01]** but never felt that they were right, to be honest, never felt that they were right. I had never felt, I had never felt so connected to a people or a person that I had in Palestine

**[37:17]** because my upbringing didn't enable me to connect with people. There was just something there and, you know, and I felt it instantly. And on my first few days, you know, I had a completely different understanding of a

**[37:33]** country. I had feelings of anger that I'd been lied to for so long. I felt embarrassed that I hadn't spoken, hadn't listened to my best friend. I was embarrassed that I remembered then when, in retrospect, when I used to go to church,

**[37:50]** the Christian church used to talk about Israel in a bright light and that sort of came back to me and I thought, you know, and then I have an uncle who works very, very high up for Christians for Israel. And so I know that my upbringing was more towards Israel and I was very, very angry.

**[38:08]** So when I got there and connected with these people, I connected with them very quickly. You have a lot of superficial conversations when you're around. I mean, you'd be the same, you know, you go out to a restaurant or whatever and you're having superficial conversations with people that walk past you.

**[38:23]** I didn't have many superficial conversations with any of them over there. You know, we got straight to the point, straight to what's going on, straight to the heart. They would open up and it was an amazing, amazing thing. And then looking back that the amount of them that were Muslims is incredible.

**[38:43]** So Rob, I want to take you maybe to another side of this. You're on board the Freedom Flotilla, Handala, you're on your way to Palestine. You are abducted by the IDF, the Israeli occupation forces, being taken to an Israeli prison.

**[39:00]** I imagine that in those moments, it all sort of comes full circle, especially considering your background, right? Being switched from home to home and what you've been through. And I guess the whole process of, you know, we are a culmination of multiple experiences, right?

**[39:15]** God created us that way. So I imagine that a lot is playing through your head as you're being taken off and being taken by an Israeli soldier and you're confronting this brutality head on. What's going through your mind the first time that happens? On the Flotilla, we were out to sea, it was eight days, eight nights, horrific.

**[39:34]** You know, it's not pleasant. Anyone that says it's a pleasant trip. The Handala is a very old boat, made in the early 60s, late 60s. It's a gas engine, a diesel engine. So there's diesel smoke, you know, everywhere. If there is air or a breeze, you've got the diesel.

**[39:52]** But we got to the ninth day and we saw the drones, the bigger drones. So we knew they were coming. My choices were, wanted to get to Gaza. That's all I wanted to do. Or come and get me and take me to jail.

**[40:10]** They're one of the two things. And so I was ready for it. When you say one or two soldiers, there was 30 to 40 of them on the boat that got on the boat. 30 to 40 of them. And if anyone says, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Well, there's a live feed out there still. You can have a look because we had the live feed coming on the boat until they found our

**[40:29]** feed and yanked it out, you know, because that's what a peaceful group want to do. They want to get rid of any evidence of them being so peaceful. This unit is called Unit 13, just for, you know, if you're interested. They were the ones that did the Al-Shifa hospital executions.

**[40:47]** They're built for speed. So they're, you know, they're quite lanky, quite tall, but thin. And so we had 30 or 40 of them on our boat. So that was fantastic. They had a minimum of two to three guns. One had four, three revolvers and an Uzi.

**[41:04]** And we are 21 activists trying to take food to Gaza. And, you know, it's outrageous. We're like 80 kilometers out from Gaza. It's completely international waters. I wasn't intimidated by them in any way, shape or form.

**[41:22]** They, I think, knew that. They knew who I was. They were very, they mistreated, you know, an Aussie, Aussie girl, Tan, because she's Lebanese and Palestinian. But, you know, when they took us for 11 hours, they took us from the middle of the sea to

**[41:42]** Ashdod, which is where their port is. And they strip searched us a number of times and, you know, abused us and told us they wanted us to sign a piece of paper and they'd fly us anywhere we wanted or back to home. But the piece of paper said that, look, we tried to get into Israel illegally.

**[41:59]** And so then they could use that against us and future flotillas to say, see, this is what they're doing. But none of us did that. So we were put into maximum security prison, which was interesting. I was in with one elderly guy who was on the boat with me.

**[42:17]** They had threatened that, you know, there was no one in there that could protect me from what was going to happen. You know, they came in and strip searched us many, many times. But what it did do, what it did do, and I did think of this, I thought I could get lost

**[42:33]** in this prison. Now, they did hide me from our government for a day because they told the government Rob has assaulted somebody and he's been moved. Now, I hadn't assaulted anybody, but our government spokespeople then have to tell our loved ones. So my loved ones were told Rob has assaulted somebody in an Israeli prison and now he's

**[42:53]** been moved. That's the sort of games they wanted to play. They knew they couldn't get to me, so they'd get to my family. And it worked. They were petrified. But the Palestinians, the Palestinians, my brother, we need to remember what they go through. There's thousands and thousands of them in there.

**[43:11]** There's children in there. There's women in there. Most of these are under administrative detention, which means there's no charge, not a charge to be seen. They are heinous, heinous people. Now, my passport is a white passport.

**[43:27]** I'm a white guy. I have a white name. They couldn't get me out of the prison quicker. What the hell are the Palestinians going through? They're getting lost, being raped, getting beaten. They are coming out. One person came out a few days ago with no eyes.

**[43:44]** And what's our government doing about this? Nothing. What did my government do about me? Nothing. They helped me get out, but there was no outrage by Albanese. There was no comment by them either, which to me is terrible.

**[44:01]** We had one of our Aussies got killed, executed in there, Zomi, and nothing's happened. Nothing's happened. But these Palestinians live in fear, knowing that they could be taken any day and put in

**[44:16]** one of these prisons. And these prisons were horrible. There were bedbugs the size of your thumbnail, maybe, depending on how big your thumbnail is. There were cockroaches. The water was not drinkable. The shower was like acidic.

**[44:31]** We didn't eat or drink because we were on a hunger strike anyway. But the conditions were terrible. When they said they were going to beat me up, I didn't sleep for three days anyway. I just stood looking through the bars as they do in the movies. It's a reminder of what the Palestinians go through.

**[44:48]** And it's the least that I could do. I'm glad I went to the prison so I could get a sneak peek. We heard noises coming from different areas that we didn't know. And again, we revert back to, they can pray.

**[45:04]** They can talk to God. They can do everything that they need to do. And the Israelis can never take that away from them, ever. And they will continue to pray and they will not be broken. It's really hard to think about what's happening to them because

**[45:23]** you see them when they come out. You can't even say, imagine what's happening to them. Because we've had videos of the rape. People being raped to death. We've seen death on their faces when they come out. Like you said, people come out with no eyes.

**[45:39]** Dr. Abu Safiya, who you mentioned, doctors, kids, women. The stories are horrific. There's that blank stare of trauma on their faces, many of them, when they come out. Some of them disappear into those dungeons for decades.

**[45:55]** Many of them die in those dungeons. I think it's a reminder to the world that, especially those that are speaking up against the genocide, that we often only mourn the dead. And we forget that amongst the living are those who would wish to be dead.

**[46:10]** But what you mentioned about prayer and sustaining themselves, I was watching Naji Al-Jafarawi, the brother of Sadiq Al-Jafarawi, may Allah have mercy on him. Naji was in prison and he was let out on the day that Sadiq was martyred.

**[46:26]** So he came out hoping that Sadiq would be there, one of the most prominent journalists of this genocide. And he came to know as he's getting off the prison bus that Sadiq was killed that very same day. I was watching him speak about his experience in prison.

**[46:42]** He says it's a nightmare. But I never felt closer to God than I did in those prisons. My last 10 nights of Ramadan, that night of decree, the way that we were praying. I mean, these people were praying with their eyes while they were being on every part of their bodies.

**[46:59]** And they still found a way to connect. And just like they can't explain the torture, they can't explain the tranquility of faith in the midst of that torture. My friend, Ahmed, that's what he was saying. Because we were talking about the prayer, the way that you do it and the systems that you do it.

**[47:15]** And he said, Rob, Allah says that if you can't do something, He's not going to make you do it. And if you're lying on your back and you're in a coma and you can move your eyes, that's prayer. You'll use your eyes. That's exactly what you're saying. With the Palestinian prisoners, the Israelis aren't going to break them.

**[47:36]** I mean, isn't it interesting that a lot of the Israelis, most of the Israelis are not religious. They're not. Their mental health suicide rate is through the roof. And they're the ones, the aggressors, they're the ones that are killing the Palestinians. And the Palestinians are outlasting them.

**[47:52]** It's a pretty powerful thought process. My last trip, it was this 15-year-old. One of the Tamimi family. He just got out of jail, he's 15. And he's a scrawny little kid, you know, they said that he threw stones and he didn't.

**[48:07]** He's not that type, you know. There are some that'll do it, but he wasn't. Well, three or four weeks after I got home, I saw a photo of him. And he had half his face shot off. And they tried to say that he fell off his bicycle. Like, seriously? You're going to go with that?

**[48:26]** You're going to lie about that, which is so blatant, but they don't care. But then to see him like that when I saw him only a few weeks before. Jail, now that, for the rest of his life. You know, I have so many stories like that too when I was over there.

**[48:42]** Of different people that I met that have been through horrific events. And, you know, they just are forced to go along with their life. Rob, I want to ask you, you know, kind of bringing it back to what we're seeing right now. And maybe we kind of wrap the conversation with this.

**[48:58]** There's an explosion of Islamophobia right now. And there are multiple records to show that this is very intentional. That, you know, Zionists are pumping money into anti-Muslim propaganda.

**[49:13]** Because they see a correlation between Islamophobia. And the releasing of pressure off of the Israeli lobby. Off of the Zionists for their crimes in Gaza. Because it almost becomes, you know, I remember the billboards that were being put up.

**[49:28]** Around, yeah, being put up around the U.S. that they would kill you too. Right? Like it's, it is very intentional. You know, to demonstrate, to show the Palestinians in this light. And to show Muslims by extension. And you mentioned this, that there are Palestinian Christians. And Palestinian Christians and Muslims have a wonderful relationship.

**[49:46]** There is a beautiful harmony that has existed between Palestinian Christians and Muslims. So it's not that all Palestinians are Muslims. But anti-Palestinian bigotry is Islamophobic. Islamophobia and anti-Palestinian bigotry traffic in the exact same tactics. And there's a correlation between the amplification of Islamophobia.

**[50:05]** And the diminishing of the rightful pressure on Israel for what it's doing. Can you talk about that? I mean, that Islamophobia and how you see it maybe playing out in Australia. I mean, you're there and they just had the attack that took place.

**[50:23]** The horrific attack that took place on innocent Jewish civilians. Right? And a Muslim hero, right? That definitely puts a cog in the Islamophobia machine. Because he wasn't, he didn't fit the narrative neatly. You know, who saves multiple lives.

**[50:38]** But then like I saw, like Zachary Foster saying this. I know this is no longer becoming one question. But Zachary Foster saying that, you know, like 15 people dying in Gaza under a so-called ceasefire

**[50:53]** is a good day, quote unquote, for the people of Gaza. Like that tells you everything you need to know. So that's not minimizing a tragedy at all. That's to say that the selective humanity alongside this intentional bigotry

**[51:10]** that's meant to distract from a genocide is deeply dangerous. And we're seeing the ramifications of that. Can you just talk about that for a bit? I mean, how you're experiencing that in Australia right now in particular. Well, it definitely works. That's the thing. And it worked 15 years ago with me because I assumed that the two were sort of together.

**[51:31]** Because they would actually talk about, you know, they're saying that the Islamists were trying to kill the Israelis. And so you think, oh, okay, it'll happen here. With this latest Bondi riot thing, why don't they just blame the actual perpetrators?

**[51:49]** That's the two people that did it. That's it. They don't represent Islam. They don't represent all Muslims. But all Muslims are expected to speak about it, to apologize for it, when they had nothing to do with it.

**[52:05]** The same doesn't happen with the Zionists either. Doesn't happen that way. And it does work. I don't know if it's going to work as much as it did now. I have a feeling that it won't. But watching the news here at the moment after the Bondi riot thing has made me sick.

**[52:25]** We've reverted back to four years ago when they used to talk about it. Everything is about anti-Semitism. Everything is about that the Jews are trying to get attacked. All of these sorts of things. The fact is two crazy people went out and killed innocent people.

**[52:46]** It isn't a group. It was two of them. But I think we need to keep positive. I think we need to not react as much either because I actually think that it will blow over. This one will blow over and we will go back to talking about Palestine

**[53:03]** and to talk about those other incidents going on. Because two crazy people killing innocent people here in Sydney has nothing on a complete society decimating another population. It doesn't. The good thing about it, and I think people aren't as scared to have a go at Israel.

**[53:24]** I mean, our old Prime Minister, I can't believe it. He came out and he was having a go at Benjamin Netanyahu telling him to mind his own business and back off. I couldn't believe it. To see that. And that's just something that doesn't happen.

**[53:39]** But I think that the love for Palestine worldwide today is far greater than the fear that we have of Israel. That will make a change. So Rob, if you're speaking to, and I want to specifically send the message

**[53:55]** to the Australian Muslim community, your Australian Muslim community now, that are, you know, afraid of the backlash, the repercussions. I actually went to Christchurch, New Zealand, when a man live streamed, a terrorist live streamed, right, shooting dead 50 Muslims.

**[54:13]** And I met many of our Australian Muslim brothers and sisters who flew to Christchurch for the funerals back then. I know that many people are afraid of the backlash. And the Australian Muslim community is dealing with familiar sentiments of fear, but definitely in a changing world.

**[54:29]** What's your message to Australian Muslims specifically? It's a really tough one. And it is a really tough one. And the message would be coming from me. I'm not going to tell people how to think or what to do. But my belief is that the community knows better.

**[54:47]** That the perpetrators were two people that are challenged mentally. They do not represent Islam. They do not represent Muslims. We as a group of people know better than that. And I also believe that those that aren't Muslims

**[55:03]** are smart enough now to realize that as well. With this, all of this environment, we're not trying to demonize different groups. Well, the Muslims shouldn't be demonized for two crazy people. We shouldn't be asked to apologize.

**[55:20]** We shouldn't even be asked to comment. It had nothing to do with us. Thank you so much, Robert. I'm going to end with this. First of all, it's been such a joy and a pleasure. But I want to end with this. Someone who knew Robert, the biggest atheist in the world,

**[55:37]** and now Robert, the pro-Palestinian Muslim. We started off this interview with one minute. You know, like calls you up and says, Robert, like what happened? How can you possibly believe in Islam now? How can you possibly believe in God?

**[55:54]** How can you possibly believe in Islam? What do you say to them? I would say, how could you possibly not? When you look at it, when you read it, when you think about it, when you feel it,

**[56:09]** when you see it, and when you're surrounded by it, you can't deny it. Incredible. That was less than one minute and it was sufficient. I just want to say thank you. Thank you. As a Palestinian who's never been able to go back,

**[56:26]** you probably walked in the homes, the homeland of my parents, my mother being from Nablus, mother from Nablus, father from Tulkarm, multiple relatives still there. And I've never had the chance to be there. They lived in Ramallah, they lived in Bethlehem,

**[56:43]** Al-Quds, relatives in Gaza. And you've been there and you chose to take on this plight. I just want you to know how grateful we are to you for your solidarity, and foremost as a human being before you became a Muslim. And now as our Muslim brother,

**[57:00]** how deeply I personally appreciate you and what a joy it is to be able to speak with you. Thank you so much, Robert. I appreciate you. Cheers, brother. We'll see you. Hopefully I'll meet you in person one day. Absolutely. Absolutely.

## Other Episodes in "Gaza Diaries with Dr. Omar Suleiman"
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